GS Stators: Revised Phase B Tests

[Graham]

I'm asking to state unequivocally where in the equations I posted (for your benefit alone) where is the error? Since you are calling me out to check on me and keep me in-line, tell everybody where the error is. You are the one who chose to take this down this route, not me. You have to save the GSR from my incompetence don't you?



OK Sounds like you are giving up. I though at least you could follow what Balzor was babbling about for 4 days. I though both of you guys said I screwed you the RMS calculations at least?

Well it is better to stay low , because he is finally realizing I might have been able to read my own scope I have had since 1997. He has an explanation for the discrepancy in our measurements, but unfortunately he is now starting to realize he is wrong. So any answers you get off of him could be wrong as well. Sorry for breaking the news.

Don't worry, I got the parts on order for the Dummy load and should be testing by next weekend. Lets see if ether of you can figure it out before then.

I educated in the last thread on ammeter limitations.
And with ammeters on load and power source.
And again with ground fault testing.
Now in this thread I educate you on RMS voltage.
And on voltmeter limitations.
For someone so educated why am I teaching you this crap.
I test and repair motorcycle daily for money you don’t.
In the past 5 years I have not misdiagnosed 1 stator.
How many motorcycle stators have you tested this week, I did 9.
I’m done educating in this simple crap. Open a book and read, I do.
The current tests work 100% and complicated load tests aren’t needed.
Do you dummy test and post it because in end it will help me.
The worse you could do is cause me to make more money.

Forget everything I posted about errors because as I’m typing this I have realized something. I could add an hour labor from your stator papers with the load tests.
Show the customer the stator papers printed out to and tell them how complicated charging system tests are. Thanks I knew I’d get something out of this. Think you could add the ammeter and megger in there too for even more labor charges. 9 stator tests at 2 hours each is $585 because a printed publication said do it this way. Now that is a good equation.
Hey posplayr you got any starter papers? Never mind I’ll do a search.

[bakalorz]

Because you have been making a fool out of your self starting with this post 4 days ago when I initially suggested a 20 ohm resistor for a dummy load where you claimed people would burn their bikes up if they built a 20 ohms dummy load.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1392069&postcount=30

Now I have computed (as I said I would) the power and revised the design for a 10 ohms resistor which according to you would have been twice as bad as when I posted the first time.

Now you realize my measurements are OK and your think that the output of ~60 vice mine @ 90 is due to variation in manufacturer specs because you have no other way to explain the difference.

There is a fundamental reason and you are NOT getting it. Go chew on that and see how long it takes you to figure it out.

Tic Tic Tic..................

Actually, what I freaked out on was not a 20 ohm load, but an 8 ohm load,
2 and a half times as bad.

Additionally, the type of resistor you advocated and linked to in that specific post are a different design than the ones you are suggesting in this thread.
The ones you are suggesting now are enclosed in an aluminum housing and appear physically bigger, which would imply greater thermal inertia.
Given that you intend to do a short pulse test that matters a lot as to how much they will heat up.

your initial power calculation was

The stator puts out nominally 70-80 volts at 5KRPM; with 8 ohms resistors that would be about 80/16=5 amps and a nearly full voltage test. P = 5*8=40/.707=28 watts at 5K RPM.

Do you still stand by that ? Cause that's a big part of what I initially objected so much to.

All in all, yes, I still think that building the dummy load you initially suggested is actually pretty dangerous. I still stand behind a warning not to do it.

--

As to the revised dummy load as described in the pdf in the first post of this thread.
well, its better, you moved from 8 to 10 ohms, and the resistors themselves seem bigger, so hopefully better able to take a short pulse.

OTOH:
The heatsink you recommend is woefully inadequate.
look at the spec sheet you provided, you need at least 1 sq-ft /resistor.
You are running at 1/12 that, which pretty much derates the power handling to 20 watts: 1/5 of even your calculation.

The warning in the PDF is woefully inadequate: "the dummy load heatsink will become hot to the touch in 2-3 minutes"

No, it should be more like "the dummy load heatsink will become hot enough to damage paint and/or melt through insulation in less than a minute, be sure to place it on a nonflammable surface"

If you had a realistic warning in there I wouldn't be warning people its potentially dangerous.

Tell me, do YOU think it would be safe to rest the dummy load as described in the PDF on your wiring harness and rev it to 5000 for 90 seconds ... because as the PDF stands now that's all ok, and it shouldn't even be "hot to the touch" yet ???

Because you know that's whats eventually going to happen ... someone is going to build one with short leads and rest it on the wiring harness or tank ... and then its going to take them longer to get a good reading than they expect ... and then bad things WILL happen.

I know not to do that, you know not to do that, anyone following this thread knows not to do that ... not everyone using the stator pages will know not to do that ...

So, yeah, I still think the dummy load procedure as described in the PDF in your first post of this thread is dangerous. Put it in the stator pages that way and someone will eventually damage their bike.

---

Re: the voltage calculations.

I measured 92 VAC RMS, (equates to 130 VAC 0-peak)
Suzuki's manual states a minimum of 80 VAC RMS (113 VAC 0-peak)

In your voltage calculations you claimed 80 VAC 0-peak (equates to 56 VAC RMS). As an open circuit test this would fail even the lower limits given in the stator papers.
you claimed in post 26 that this was measured open circuit (during the non-regulating phase with a series R/R; so agreed, open circuit)

That would indicate a faulty stator, so yes: I thought you were mis-measuring it.

In post 4 of this thread you said that the loaded tests will only drop the voltage ~5%. It may be a bigger drop in reality, but for our purposes here, I'll use the number you provided.

That gets a barely passing stator (60 RMS) almost down to 80 0-peak (56 RMS).
which I will guess is where you got your voltage for the calculations.

Applying the same 5% drop under load takes my stator to 87 VAC RMS (123 VAC 0-peak) still well above 80 VAC RMS called for by Suzuki,
and still leaving the power into the revised dummy load at >400% rated.
still way to much.

This is all pretty much what I already agreed to in post 38.
but spelled out in more detail.

what are you looking for






POSPLAYR's calculations are correct for a stator with his characteristics !!!



(but mine are still correct for a stator with my characteristics ... and his dummy load is still extra dangerous with my stator)





is that it ???


So what is the fundamental reason I am still not getting, because I still think I understand it. Show me where I am wrong.


---


And then, show me the money ...

show me how the dummy load helps troubleshooting at all.

Wheres the money ...

How does the dummy load discriminate between bad and good stators in a better way than the unloaded tests.

SHOW ME THE MONEY ...

How will loaded tests beat the perfect diagnostic record that Graham quoted.

WHERES THE MONEY ...

ANSWER THE ONE QUESTION I ASK IN ALMOST EVERY POST IN THESE THREADS ... THE ONE QUESTION THAT YOU NEVER ADDRESS ... THE ONE QUESTION THAT YOU NEVER HAVE AN ANSWER TO ...

WHERES THE MONEY ... WHERES THE GOSH DARNED MONEY ... what actual benefit does the loaded test have ...

Give me an actual valid cogent answer to the question you always avoid and I'll be quite happy to drop it.

[posplayr]

OK Time is running out on putting an end to all of the confusion. Made up the dummy load today.

This is about 1/2 the thermal mass I previously quoted 3"x4"x3/8" Alum

Y config, with a sense point for neutral.

[Graham]

OK Time is running out on putting an end to all of the confusion. Made up the dummy load today.

This is about 1/2 the thermal mass I previously quoted 3"x4"x3/8" Alum

Y config, with a sense point for neutral.

Where is the video of the test?

[posplayr]

I just reread this thread ( at least my responses) as you can see in the picture I did build the dummy load but never put it on a bike to test. I tend to solder mr r/r directly into the stator and harness so it was a bit of a pain to do just to prove a point. I don't quite remember what it is that I was waiting on balk adobe to figure out but what he was missing is that the terminal voltage of the stator varies with load. Much like the difference in output voltage difference you get when running the stator open loop vs driving the r/r. The dummy load would create yet a different output voltage given the same rpm for all three conditions.

It was his not accounting for the drop in voltage of the stator ( a voltage divider between internal stator resistance and the external resistive load) that lead him to conclude there would be much more voltage and therefore more current and heat causing the dummy load to get much hotter much quicker than my calculations would suggest. Silly boy.

Just think about it this way, the thermal mass of that heat sink and power resistor set is comparable to a standard shunt r/r. The 10 ohm resistors are probably 5-10 times the resistance of a stator . This thing is just not going to get any hotter than a standard r/r given the limited testing .

[gs11ezrydr]

First of all I would like to thank posplayr for the input he has had here on the GSresources.I have noticed when I or others have needed assistance he has been the one right there,answered mine and many others questions promptly,and as far as I have seen accurately.For the most part described them in laymans terms that I and others have been able to understand.I have been working on motorcycles for over 25 yrs and for the most part I am probably not going to build me any type of a dynamic tester for stators just yet.I can see where at times it may be useful in possibly recreating actual running conditions.But again for the most part the ones I see are fried cut and dried. But again as long as I and I speak for others we can properly diagnose our charging system problems from any information we are to recieve here on GSresources we should be grateful.And to have such smart and knowledgable people to derive our information from I think it's also great.So instead of you guys having a pi**ing contest trying to prove posplayr wrong I would much rather see you guys put your heads together possibly rewrite some stuff (stator papers) etc.make corrections to existing materials whatever and just draw some conclusions instead of blood. OK now throw your punches at me awhile I'll even turn the other cheek.

[posplayr]

First of all I would like to thank posplayr for the input he has had here on the GSresources.I have noticed when I or others have needed assistance he has been the one right there,answered mine and many others questions promptly,and as far as I have seen accurately.For the most part described them in laymans terms that I and others have been able to understand.I have been working on motorcycles for over 25 yrs and for the most part I am probably not going to build me any type of a dynamic tester for stators just yet.I can see where at times it may be useful in possibly recreating actual running conditions.But again for the most part the ones I see are fried cut and dried. But again as long as I and I speak for others we can properly diagnose our charging system problems from any information we are to recieve here on GSresources we should be grateful.And to have such smart and knowledgable people to derive our information from I think it's also great.So instead of you guys having a pi**ing contest trying to prove posplayr wrong I would much rather see you guys put your heads together possibly rewrite some stuff (stator papers) etc.make corrections to existing materials whatever and just draw some conclusions instead of blood. OK now throw your punches at me awhile I'll even turn the other cheek.

Thanks for the support.