Coils, I think?

[koolaid_kid]

No, you want the Dyna S. It replaces both the signal generator and igniter, and reuses your mechanical advance unit.

[koolaid_kid]

Ok, so that's a lot more to check. Maybe I should just take this slowly and eliminate some possibilities first.

Absolutely. You should always find the root cause of the issue before you purchase any parts. Once you have a healthy system, you can consider upgrading parts.

[keman]

I have done the coil relay on my 850. VERY PLEASED. Went from 9.7v to just under 14v at the coil. Improved idle and power notably. Cost me less than 10.00, and would have taken less than a half hour if I hadn't been doing other repairs at the same time. Even if you think you don't need it, I still recommend this mod. 30 year old wires just can not do the job any more. Too much resistance from internal corrosion and heat over the years.

When unsure of the root issue, I always start with the least expensive of the possible solutions. I learned this the hard way. I bought a new transmission for an old car I had (450.00) , sold the old "dead" trans to a friend for 20.00 he went through it and found it only needed a 3.00 part that did not even require dropping the trans. Nothing like spending 450.00 and hours of grease time to find out you only needed a linkage shear key replaced.

[OldVet66]

Prices have gone up a bit at Z1. The Dyna green coils and 8mm suppression wires will run $147.00. With or without the Dyna-s it's a worthwhile coil upgrade.

[frijoles-and-beans]

Prices have gone up a bit at Z1. The Dyna green coils and 8mm suppression wires will run $147.00. With or without the Dyna-s it's a worthwhile coil upgrade.

the coil upgrade looks pretty appealling to me. I'm going to get at this whole misfiring problem, but I'm definitely going to upgrade as well along with that whole relay mechanism thing.

Absolutely. You should always find the root cause of the issue before you purchase any parts. Once you have a healthy system, you can consider upgrading parts.

Mr. Koolaid Kid,


Dyna S, ok, got it. I hope that I don't have to go there though. Still looks pricy. Maybe I'll get lucky and just have to save that information for future reference. I'm gonna get out here and have a look at the thing now.


I'm getting a little ahead of myself with that whole coil situation, I know, but it'd be nice to have. I'll get at this misfiring first which might just coincide with the coil situation. I guess I better get outside and do my thing.

[Steve]

I guess it helps that I change them every 1,500 miles.*I could leave them in for a while, but this is my only bike and I'm gonna take care of it.*

Then can I have your old worn out ones there's no sense in me spending 'my' hard earned money if I can get some perfecty good ones that I can use for say the next 12~15,000 miles.

And if Rusty can't use all the ones you send his way, please remember that he onlly has three GSes in his stable, and I have FIVE.
Yeah, the sig only shows four of them, I need to figure out how to shorten the sig to fit the fifth one in there.

You say that the aftermarket product has a higher voltage output? Ok, so the relay will amplify the voltage going to the coils, and the coils will then amplify it once again to a specified voltage in the new higher output "upgraded" coils. Hmm, that sounds like a good deal.

OK first things first: the relay won't "amplify" anything.
All it is going to do is to provide an electric path that will bypass all the old wires and dirty connections between the battery and the coils.
Yep, all it does is provide full battery voltage, unamplified.

This should be your first test, as 1948man said. You can do it with the engine running or not, but measure the voltage at the input of the coil and compare it with the voltage at the battery. The difference in the two voltages should be as close to zero as possible, but up to a volt will still work acceptably.

For all the hype around the "coil relay mod", I'll just humbly tell you that I have never even measured my coil voltage.
That's right. My bikes run well enough that I do not suspect anything is wrong, so have never checked it. Granted, two of the 850s came to me with Accel coils already installed, but the other two 850s, the 650 and the 1000 did not.

posplayer, I just noticed that you're the one who wrote the relay mod on Cliff's site. Very useful information that'll be for me. What type of relay should I ask for? It says automotive, but what kind?

You will typically find the relay in the auxillary lighting section, commonly referred to as a "fog light relay". Should cost about $5-7 at the auto parts store.

Should look like this:



.

[5azzmonkey]

Have you checked the wires and/or replaced the spark plug caps?

[mike_of_bbg]

Have you checked your charging system to be certain it's up to snuff at higher RPMs?

The coil relay mod is fine, but I didn't notice any difference at higher RPMs, where the system voltage is higher. I DID notice a difference in how the bike started!

The plug caps are known to go bad eventually. When they do, the resistance usually shoots up. Even with very high resistance they may still spark, but it can be weak. As mentioned stock caps are ~10k ohms, the NGKs recommended to replace the stock are ~5k. The coil secondaries should be ~12-15k. So you're in the ~34k ballpark with stock caps, or ~24k with NGKs.

[chuck hahn]

(1) Start the bike at night outside and have it in an area away from street or security lights..the darkest place you can find. Spray it with a hose or throw a bucket of water on the engine and start it. Then look around and see if you see little sparklers going off from the wires to the engine or the closest metal. This will show if theres cracks in the wires and they are trying to short to the closest ground. (2) Clip off about 1/4 inch off each wire and rescrew the caps on. (3) Look inside the caps and see if theres a slot for a flat tip screw driver..if so unscrew the insert and get rid of the resistors. Cut some 1/8 inch brass rod the length of the resistors and put those back in instead of the resistors. (4) If youve got points and condensors look at the points for blackness and pitting on the surfaces. (5) check the timing (6) unless your bike is running super rich and fouling the plugs easily theres at least 20,000 miles in a plug. I ran the same set in my 98 Honda Shadow VT1100CS for 8 years. All I did was use my spark plug cleaner and regap them. (7) Note that caps 1 and 4 DO NOT have a spring in them to keep the resistor in contact with the insert because they are short...2 and 3 will have a spring in them. When you reassemble the caps put the spring in first, then the brass replacement, then the insert.

[alke46]

As I am reading this thread, I can't help but wonder if you have done the primary thing yet. Have you gone through all the connections and cleaned them?

My bike is not getting it's full share of voltage at the coils yet as I am going to go through the connections this winter, but still it runs like a raped ape with no mis-fires. I think your problem is elsewhere. More likely in the secondary wiring going to the plugs. Good luck.

[frijoles-and-beans]

Voltage is up to snuff on the coils.

Hmmm... just reading through the responses, I think I should replace these horribly old spark-plug wires first. Get them out of the way. They're in bad shape. I haven't tested them for a short yet, but replacement is probably ideal. I'll be checking the connections in the wiring too, and cleaning it up a bit.

I guess this thread will take a while for me to post results. I'll keep plugging away at it, and let you guys know what happened.

[koolaid_kid]

If you have the original wires they can usually be refreshed by cutting off the first half an inch or so. You should see shiny copper in the center. Then screw the caps back in and test again.

[mike_of_bbg]

The wires are not designed to be replaced on the stock coils; though it is not impossible either. As koolaid points out, they are copper core wires so the cores don't usually go bad. A little trim to fresh copper and fresh caps should get your conductive path back to right.

If your insulation is cracked that might be cause to replace the wires. I wonder if painting them with liquid electrical tape would make a good repair though?

[chuck hahn]

Guys..yes they can be freshened up by cutting the ends...but if theres tiny cracks 4 inches up and they are trying to ground to the frame or engine that wont solve the problem. There can be micro cracks and they will try to arch to the nearest grounding point..the bike will still run but the stammering is induced because the wires are fractured everywhere..get the idea here??

[koolaid_kid]

Certainly Chuck. If you suspect that f&b, start the bike in the dark and look for arcing. You can also grab each wire and see if it shocks you. A bit harsh, but it works and there is very little current, so it won't hurt you, just make you let go rapidly. Unless you have a pacemaker, of course. Then you fall down and won't need to ride a motorcycle again. Ever.