Need Charging System Help

[gbw]

So it seems that my unloaded AC stator output does not change as the bike goes from being cold up to operating temp. It stays constant at 50V at 3k rpm and 80V at 5k rpm.

However, and I'm going to confirm this again after the bike cools off, I'm pretty sure it charges properly when cold and not so well when its warmed up.

If that is true could that still be the stator or could it be something else? I'm confident the R/R is good. It is a Duanage Honda R/R.

I'm temped to just buy the new stator Redman found but I hate throwing good money after bad without knowing if it will sure fix the problem.

I also might try JWB's light bulb test. Maybe the AC output results will be different under load when hot vs. cold.

[Redman]

So it seems that my unloaded AC stator output does not change as the bike goes from being cold up to operating temp. It stays constant at 50V at 3k rpm and 80V at 5k rpm.

However, and I'm going to confirm this again after the bike cools off, I'm pretty sure it charges properly when cold and not so well when its warmed up.

If that is true could that still be the stator or could it be something else?
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Yes, beacuse the "unloaded AC stator output test" is, ah, unloaded. THings could be different when stator is loaded and current flowing which can heat up the stator even more.

And doing it the way you did, you just knew the engine was warm, you did not really know the charging was faultering.

Maybe, next time, connect everything up, run it till it gets warm and can tell the charging is faultering. Then disconnect and do the stator test while it is still warm.

.

[duaneage]

GBW,

I'm interested to see what you find out. I have a 79 GS850 with basically the same set up as you and everything checks out according to the stator papers, but it's still not charging properly.

I've been thinking that maybe the older 12 pole stators don't work well with the Honda RR's (SH232, 532, etc).

Does anyone have a 12 pole stator and a Honda RR that is functioning properly?

Perhaps duaneage knows?

They work perfectly with every GS stator there is, I've sold them to every model GS from '77 to '86

[gbw]

I just placed an order for the Electorsport stator that Redman found.

Maybe it will solve my charging problem. But even if it doesn't, at least I won't be riding around with a 35 year old stator of questionable integrity.

Plus, they have a one-year no questions asked warranty. So I could it return it but I doubt I will.

[gbw]

My new stator arrived today. Unfortunately, my clutch started slipping so bad yesterday it would no longer propel the bike.

So now my priorities have changed. I hope to open up the clutch today and find out what is going on. I'm sure I'll have to order parts. While I'm waiting for the parts I'll install the new stator.

Once I get everything buttoned up again I'll be able to test if the new stator works.

Dang clutch! If its not one thing its another.

[Redman]

My new stator arrived today. Unfortunately, my clutch started slipping so bad yesterday it would no longer propel the bike.
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..

Well, you can go some distance without a charging system. But not much with clutch slipping that bad.

Man, now working on both sides of engine at same time.

If you read manual about clutch plates, it reads like the thickness of the friction plates are the critical factor. But, now, 30 years later, the hardness (and resulting lack of friction) is the more critical thing. Also the spring tension. The thickness can be in spec, and be so hard and brittle that will slipp. But, hey, this is the electrical forumn.


.

[gbw]

Well, you can go some distance without a charging system. But not much with clutch slipping that bad.

Man, now working on both sides of engine at same time.

If you read manual about clutch plates, it reads like the thickness of the friction plates are the critical factor. But, now, 30 years later, the hardness (and resulting lack of friction) is the more critical thing. Also the spring tension. The thickness can be in spec, and be so hard and brittle that will slipp. But, hey, this is the electrical forumn.


.

Well, the new stator is in and the clutch plates are installed. However, I'm reluctant to start the bike until I get the front end installed. Should have that complete by the end of the weekend.

This weekend being my wife's birthday and Mother's Day is slowing me down a little.

Can't wait to get it started and see if I have a working charging system.

[gbw]

Well...no love. Even with the new stator the bike only puts out about 13VDC at 5k rpm. So, new stator, new Duanage R/R (well, its a few years old now), and still not charging properly. Guess I'll start looking at the wiring again, but I've been through it pretty thoroughly in the past. Guess I missed something.

[tom203]

So sense wire hooked to brakelight switch ? - R/R positive output into harness or direct via inline fuse to battery positive? make sure R/R ground wire (green?) has good connection to battery negative.
This 13 volts at 5k- is this measured at battery?

[Redman]

Well...no love. Even with the new stator the bike only puts out about 13VDC at 5k rpm. So, new stator, new Duanage R/R (well, its a few years old now), and still not charging properly. Guess I'll start looking at the wiring again, but I've been through it pretty thoroughly in the past. Guess I missed something.

13vdc is marginal or low. Will not fully charge battery. You may get by, but not very well. High 13s much better. Low 14s better yet (but watch fluid level if fluid type battery).

Also measure the voltage the R/R is putting out, from the very same place where the R/R is putting it out : From The R/R output to the R/R negitive. If this is not the same as what you are measuring acrost the battery, then there is a problem in connections between the R/R and the battery. And there are steps in the stator papares to check this, check for voltage between the battery+ and the R/R output, should be about zero, if not than bad connection. Check for voltage between the battery- and R/R negitive, should be about zero, if not then bad connection, maybe where battery box grounded by the black/white wire or the black/white wire is not really a good groound.

Tell us more what you find.

Tell us about the scense line. Where is that connected? If it is a Dunnage R/R, it came with connectors to connect into the rear brake power line, which is a good place because it is somewaht close to battery but yet gets powered down when bike is off. If it is there I can not see any problem there causing you Low battery voltage. (although a problem there can cause High battery voltage).

If scense line is connected directly to the R/R output (which are reasons not too and should not) and if there is some bad connection between R/R output and the battery+, then you will get Low voltage at battery.

As a test; disconenct the scense line. That will make the R/R think voltage is real low, and then R/R crank out as much as it can, like maybe 16. This is just a quick test to prove that the stator can put out the power. Only do it for a portin of a minute.

Front end. MAn. Knew about the charging problem,... and the clutch plates ... and now front end, what is that about? New tire? (did I miss something?)

Dave

[gbw]

So sense wire hooked to brakelight switch ?

Yes

- R/R positive output into harness or direct via inline fuse to battery positive?

direct to the battery. Might be a fuse inline but might not.

make sure R/R ground wire (green?) has good connection to battery negative.

negative is directly connected to the battery

This 13 volts at 5k- is this measured at battery?

measured across the battery

Also measure the voltage the R/R is putting out, from the very same place where the R/R is putting it out : From The R/R output to the R/R negitive. If this is not the same as what you are measuring acrost the battery, then there is a problem in connections between the R/R and the battery.

R/R positive and negative leads are connected directly to the battery. So I'm not sure how to measure the R/R output and battery voltage separately.

Check for voltage between the battery- and R/R negitive, should be about zero, if not then bad connection, maybe where battery box grounded by the black/white wire or the black/white wire is not really a good groound.

Again, R/R neg connected directly to battery.

Tell us about the scense line. Where is that connected? If it is a Dunnage R/R, it came with connectors to connect into the rear brake power line, which is a good place because it is somewaht close to battery but yet gets powered down when bike is off. If it is there I can not see any problem there causing you Low battery voltage. (although a problem there can cause High battery voltage).

This is a Duannage R/R and the sense is connected to the brake switch. The voltage at the switch is very nearly the same as the voltage at the battery.

As a test; disconenct the scense line. That will make the R/R think voltage is real low, and then R/R crank out as much as it can, like maybe 16. This is just a quick test to prove that the stator can put out the power. Only do it for a portin of a minute.

Duannage suggested the same thing. I'll give this a try later. I'm sure I've done this test before but it was probably a year or two ago so I don't remember the outcome.

Front end. MAn. Knew about the charging problem,... and the clutch plates ... and now front end, what is that about? New tire? (did I miss something?)

Installed Racetech springs and cartridge emulators.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=192408

[Redman]

Yes
direct to the battery. Might be a fuse inline but might not.

negative is directly connected to the battery

measured across the battery


R/R positive and negative leads are connected directly to the battery. So I'm not sure how to measure the R/R output and battery voltage separately.


Again, R/R neg connected directly to battery.


This is a Duannage R/R and the sense is connected to the brake switch. The voltage at the switch is very nearly the same as the voltage at the battery.

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Greg,

Ah, so the R/R output is connected directly to the battery. So when you measure the battery voltage you are measuring the R/R output, they are one in the same - - unless bad connection betwween them, where you can not get a meter. If there was a bad connection, the connection would be heating up.

So, that leaves the scence line, the stator connections, or the stator itself.
Scence line seems okay, if you say is reading about same as battery.
And stator is new.
Are stator connections getting warm?

Hum, wonder if battery has some internal problem.
Is the battery a fluid type with the caps? or a sealed battery? SOmetimes if it called sealed, it still has caps just under some cover with a lable across the top. Check the fluid level. Let me know if it is a fluid type (i'll check back later).

[gbw]

Are stator connections getting warm?

hmmm...not that I noticed but I don't touch them often while the bike is running. I'll check.

Hum, wonder if battery has some internal problem.
Is the battery a fluid type with the caps? or a sealed battery? SOmetimes if it called sealed, it still has caps just under some cover with a lable across the top. Check the fluid level. Let me know if it is a fluid type (i'll check back later).

Battery is a fairly new, sealed AGM gel type battery. No fluids to check.

You can see I've been around this block a few times and replaced everything I can think of in the charging system. Very frustrating that I can't solve this problem.

I won't get a chance to work on the bike again until tomorrow afternoon, but I do these tests and some Duannage suggested and report back.

Thanks for your continued interest in my electrical troubles.

[salty_monk]

Greg I take it you've taken the headlight loop out of the mix? (The extra wire that takes one leg of stator up to headlight on/off switch & back)

Just a shot in the dark...

[gbw]

Greg I take it you've taken the headlight loop out of the mix? (The extra wire that takes one leg of stator up to headlight on/off switch & back)

Just a shot in the dark...

No. I haven't done that. The 77 actually has an on/off switch for the headlight that I like to be able to use. If you really think that could be the problem I could bypass that temporarily to see if it makes a difference.

Thanks for the idea!