Battery Charged, Starter Spins Slowly, No Start

[cowboyup3371]

"Normally" a starter will have a bearing or a bushing at each end. In your case, I would look into the starter housing and check there. "Usually", if it is binding you will see heat-related discoloring of the metal shaft where the bearing/bushing rides.

Just to ask because I don't see any mention anywhere and I don't know but does the fact that I'm losing a volt across the solenoid mean anything? I have never seen any definitive test to say the solenoid itself is doing fine. I thought by shorting across that would make the starter turn better but since there's no change could that mean the solenoid itself has gone bad?

I went back and double-checked the parts fiche for any bearings and there's none shown (see below) and I don't have any extra parts laying around. If you think it's best I can try to take the starter apart again and see. Is there another way to test the starter besides connecting a ground to it from the battery and the positive to the post? Parts 4 and 5 were very thin shims.

[koolaid_kid]

Jumping across the posts on the solenoid bypasses it completely, taking it out of the picture. If the behavior is the same, chances are it is fine.
Looking at part #2, disregarding the windings and such it is a shaft. A shaft needs to be supported on both ends. It is entirely possible that the splines on the right end of the shaft are supporting that end. The left end also needs support as well. Since it does not even have a part number, there should be a bushing or a bearing in the part that the #14 bolts slide through to bolt to the engine case. Not saying that is bad, but that is where it would be located.
Personally, unless you are really busy, I would just go ahead and remove the starter and take it apart again and inspect things. I read your starter brush replacement thread, so I know you have done it before. A visual inspection is worth a ton of conjecture.

[Missile99]

Koolaid_kid, thanks for catching my error earlier. The GS Resources overall has a very high percentage of well educated people. That's a huge reason I can't get enough of this forum. So many complete sentences here and people that keep emotion in their words to a minimum. Amazing. This has to be the very best one on the internet. I wish there were more people like this around where I live. This world is too full of dumb people who always think they're right and never offer to help anybody.

So the voltage loss is >1 volt across the solenoid? I was thinking that it was 11 volts on either side of it. What does the multimeter read when you put each lead on respective battery and starter side of the relay and try and start it?

I don't know about testing the starter for excessive draw, but doesn't the parts stores test these too? Maybe someone has a current draw spec that they can share if it comes to that. I don't think so yet. It spins good sometimes and seems like nothing was missed during reassembly.

[cowboyup3371]

Okay, took the starter out of the bike and tested it using the battery. Video here -


I'll take it apart and do another video

[cowboyup3371]

Here's a video of me taking it apart...



I apologize for how crappy it is; pretty difficult to do everything one handed (I envy those who have to). The copper is now black and the brushes look okay but worn down obviously. I put the left end back into the bearing and it spins okay so I don't know what to make of that.

[koolaid_kid]

cowboyup, thanks, but I don't really know about all that fuss. While we have our share of members who feel compelled to put other people down to make themselves feel better, I do not count myself in that group. At any rate:
The cap on the end has a bushing in it. That should be lightly greased when you reassemble it. The cover on the right where the seal is has a bushing outside the seal, I am pretty sure I saw it as well. It should also be lightly greased when you go back together. Neither appear to be the issue, though, as I saw little to no heat discoloration. Thanks for the video, looks like time to reassemble and reinstall and wait for Steve.
AFA the voltage drop through the solenoid, think of how it is constructed. It has a set of points, similar to ignition points but designed for a high current. When you press the starter button, the points close and current passes through to the other side of the solenoid. Just microseconds before the points close and after they open, there will be a small jumping or spark. This is how ignition points end up pitted and needing replacement. I suspect those points are also a bit pitted, hence the voltage drop due to increased resistance.

[cowboyup3371]

So after talking with Koolaid_Kid on the phone, I'm going to try cleaning up the shaft and the copper again and lubing the bearings. Hopefully I'll be able to salvage this but I'll also have to wait some as what money I do have is put away to bring the family out here in two weeks.

Hopefully this works. Thank you to all for your help.

[OldVet66]

I can't remember the terminology, I believe it's the commutator, where the brushes contact. It should not have turned black like that. Did you clean between the segments. I believe they are isolated. It's been too many years since I knew a little about them. I believe a very fine paper like crocus cloth is all you use on them to clean it up. Whatever it's called, it will polish a gold ring nicely.

[cowboyup3371]

No I didn't clean between the copper segments nor use the grease as I didn't know I needed to. But, I will this time.

[OldVet66]

No grease on the commutator. It should be an absolutely smooth clean surface that matches the brush angle. Light grease on the shaft behind it but not enough to squeeze out and contaminate the brushes.

[cowboyup3371]

I found I still had some 2000 grit paper in the garage so I started cleaning things up again when I saw this:



Should I be able to see copper wire like that? Will it be causing me problems?

Also looked around the rest of that side trying to see if anything else is bare. Didn't find anything actually showing copper but some areas look pretty thin:



Is there a point when that epoxy gets so thin it causes problems?

[OldVet66]

It looks like it just got nicked, dab some epoxy over it and you should be good to go, it doesn't appear the varnish insulated wire underneath got damaged. A nice clear picture of the commutator cleaned up would be nice, that is the business end of the starter motor.

[cowboyup3371]

Agreed OldVet and i'm still trying to clean that up some more.

[OldVet66]

Get it as smooth as possible without distorting it's shape. The rougher it is the more it will arc and spark, and cause the same thing to happen again. It will never be perfect, but might get you by for a while. When the starter spins like you did it in the video, with no load, the torque should have it trying to jump off the bench.

[JEEPRUSTY]

Mussed up commutators wear brushes and the dust that reults can cause arcing and make the starter not spin

Can you show us yours along with the brushes?