Battery Charged, Starter Spins Slowly, No Start

[cowboyup3371]

Received the replacement from OldVet (thank you again) today. I'm working a swing shift tomorrow to do some network testing so I'll try to knock it out early in the day.

[cowboyup3371]

Starter is in the bike and I turned the engine with the button so it seems everything is working so far. It did seem a little weak but like I said, the crank is definitely moving (removed the ignition cover) so I'll wait and see what happens when I put gas to it. I have the carbs back on the bike but not totally connected so I'll try to do that much after lunch and before I go to work this afternoon.

[OldVet66]

Good deal, glad to hear it. It will probably run better after your brushes seat in with a little use. Hope you didn't use the brush holder I sent, one brush was frozen. I just sent it to show the position of the insulating bushings.

[cowboyup3371]

No, I used the "new" ones I bought but I'm wondering if maybe I should have bought another set as the one permanently attached seems to be grinding itself down again.

Thank you again OldVet

[OldVet66]

You should replace them with new ones if you can. They both should slide freely in the retainers. I'm sure the old commutator wasn't nice to them. The power brush on the holder I sent is in reasonable shape and worn in on that commutator, but I doubt you can just buy the brush that has the braid crimped and soldered to the plate. I understand with the history of bike that it came from that it was hardly used and low mileage before it became a behind the barn ornament.

[sebby110]

Cowboy;
I'm just getting to this thread and I needed to read all 7 pages (whew !!). But I liked the way plot unfolded
OldVet, you're a real champ in my book

If you decide to get to the bottom of the issue with your older core unit (if you haven't chucked it already), let me lend you my 2 cents from my very similar experience.

My bike was cranking over very slowly (frustrating as all heck), even when I was boosting it from my car battery. After some troubleshooting, my conclusion was it was the starter. I pulled it, opened it up and traced the problem to several broken strands of wire going to one of the brushes. There was still some wire connected, which is why I think it was still cranking, but it wasn't the full wire. It was really tight and awkward to get to it too. I bridged the bad wire, coated it, reassembled and she was kick'n like new (lot's of spin and torque). Worked fine ever since.

I'm gamblin there's a bad wire somewhere. My point is that it might look OK, but it might be somewhat fraid and not taking or giving full load.

Your mission "Cowboy", should you choose to accept it is , Find that bad wire and teach it a lesson

[cowboyup3371]

Not gonna happen

Like I said yesterday, something about the way that starter turned once I put it in seemed weak. Well, today, I put my temp tank on and tried to start it - nope. It's turning very weakly and doesn't give any momentum to actually start. I know I saw the crank turn yesterday so I'm sure something is working but it's just not enough.

I'm done for awhile. I think I'm just going to plan on removing the engine early next year to replace the base gasket, repaint the frame, and do some other clean up stuff. I'll probably look into getting a new starter as well and see about other stuff that will need to be done that I have noticed this year. I do need to change the oil anyway so maybe I'll take that time to also pull the stator cover and make sure everything is engaging the way it should. But to do even that I need money for parts. If I'm going to get my family here and try to get some bills paid off then I have to wait on the bike.

I really do appreciate the help but I'm so depressed about this whole situation and how much riding time I've lost that I just need to walk away from it

Thank you again Oldvet for sending that to me. Like I said, I'll find a way to repay you.

[OldVet66]

Sorry to hear that. I'll keep my eye out for a starter deal. I drove my car for the first time in months yesterday to go pick up my new Shinko tires. I'll take the bike and 40MPG any day, against the RX8 and 20MPG high test. Before you try it again, I would check all wiring and cables for possible hidden damage at the terminals. I have seen cables hanging from a couple of strands hidden by the terminal, that still looks good from the outside, and hidden corrosion that can heat up and have the connection smoking.

[cowboyup3371]

Sorry to hear that. I'll keep my eye out for a starter deal. I drove my car for the first time in months yesterday to go pick up my new Shinko tires. I'll take the bike and 40MPG any day, against the RX8 and 20MPG high test. Before you try it again, I would check all wiring and cables for possible hidden damage at the terminals. I have seen cables hanging from a couple of strands hidden by the terminal, that still looks good from the outside, and hidden corrosion that can heat up and have the connection smoking.

Thank you OldVet. I'm glad you brought up the point about the cables themselves. I'd thought that I should replace them anyway but hadn't seen a reason to. I was getting 12v through them and there's no resistance that my meter picked up, assuming I tested it correctly. I don't have a DC Current meter but that's fine. If I did replace them just for the sake of ruling that out, do I need to go OEM or can I get similar sized cables at OReillys/Autozone/Napa?

[OldVet66]

Any good cable would do as long is the same gauge or larger. Finer strands resist vibration on a motorcycle better. I wouldn't just start replacing stuff, those issues would result in heat that you can test with your finger, physical inspection, removal and cleaning.

[Killer2600]

Thank you OldVet. I'm glad you brought up the point about the cables themselves. I'd thought that I should replace them anyway but hadn't seen a reason to. I was getting 12v through them and there's no resistance that my meter picked up, assuming I tested it correctly. I don't have a DC Current meter but that's fine. If I did replace them just for the sake of ruling that out, do I need to go OEM or can I get similar sized cables at OReillys/Autozone/Napa?

Just jumping into this thread and may not have all the details but has the engine to battery ground been checked?

You can do voltage drop tests with any multi-meter, I'd suggest doing that. To do so hook up the multi-meter at any section of cable/wiring (the battery positive terminal and the battery positive post on the starter for example), load/energize the circuit (crank the starter in my example) and measure the voltage. Ideally you'd like to lose nothing (no voltage loss/drop) in just the wiring so the meter would read 0.00 but in reality loss happens, the less the better (less than 0.5v on the positive side of the starter to battery connection, less than 0.2v on any ground side are the limit of what is generally acceptable).

Hope that's not too confusing and helps. To clarify the hook-up is similar to what you'd do to measure resistance in a wire/cable, the only difference is your meter is on DC volts, the wire/cable is hooked/wired up, and you run power through it as it would be in normal operation.

[cowboyup3371]

Hey Killer, thanks for the info. I have done the tests from the positive side but not on the ground. On the positive side, I am seeing a 1v difference between the battery side of the solenoid to the starter side. As the starter is now very very slowly turning, I'm told my ground itself should be good. I also tested tonight using jumper cables from the Jeep (NOT RUNNING) to the ground and positive cables on the bike. I did this to rule out a problem with the bike battery but achieved the same results.

GS Scott graciously informed me yesterday he had a spare starter for my bike he would send out tomorrow. I should get it about the time I return from Colorado (1 Aug) so I'll test it some more then.

[OldVet66]

One of the first things I did to my bike was to run a #4 AWG ground from battery negative to the motor. This will insure the starter has a good ground, SS star washers on both sides of the terminals.

[Killer2600]

Hey Killer, thanks for the info. I have done the tests from the positive side but not on the ground. On the positive side, I am seeing a 1v difference between the battery side of the solenoid to the starter side. As the starter is now very very slowly turning, I'm told my ground itself should be good. I also tested tonight using jumper cables from the Jeep (NOT RUNNING) to the ground and positive cables on the bike. I did this to rule out a problem with the bike battery but achieved the same results.

GS Scott graciously informed me yesterday he had a spare starter for my bike he would send out tomorrow. I should get it about the time I return from Colorado (1 Aug) so I'll test it some more then.

That makes a good battery to battery connection but it still doesn't rule out positive or ground/negative wiring to the starter. Corroded or bad wires/connections will give the appearance of a weak/slow starter as the corrosion or bad section/connection resists the flow of current.

[cowboyup3371]

One of the first things I did to my bike was to run a #4 AWG ground from battery negative to the motor. This will insure the starter has a good ground, SS star washers on both sides of the terminals.

That makes a good battery to battery connection but it still doesn't rule out positive or ground/negative wiring to the starter. Corroded or bad wires/connections will give the appearance of a weak/slow starter as the corrosion or bad section/connection resists the flow of current.

I'm thinking this goes back to what I asked earlier about replacing my cables. When I get the family out here I'll try replacing the battery to solenoid/fuse block, solenoid to starter, and ground to case cables just for a test. I will talk with OReillys tomorrow though to make sure what size I'll need.

Course, another test would be to just connect my bike battery directly to the starter while in the engine and see if that changes (much like the test when out of the bike. Right?