Another R/R putting out jumping voltages.

[Guest]

In previous posts I thought I had a bad stator due to unstable and confusing voltages when checked. After much investigation and discussions, it turned out that the stator was fine and the R/R was at fault.

Fortunately I had a spare Shindengen with sense wire on the parts bike and when I tried that the other day it worked fine, The voltages were stable and within spec. I installed this R/R in place of the stock one

This evening I was about to button up the bike (put the recently lined tank back on etc) and decided to check the charging one more time.

I was extremely dismayed to find its back to doing its old tricks with voltages jumping from 12v to almost 18v then up and down all over the place.I also noticed the heat sink was getting very warm in a matter of less than 1 minute. I am at a loss to understand how it seemed to work fine the other day and its gone wonky only a day later ( and not having been used).

The stator is wired directly to the R/R and the ground from it is attached directly to the battery - with the sense wire being attached to the + as I had it setup the other day when testing. The unit is attached to the frame with good metal to metal contact.

I suppose it is possible that I have two bad R/Rs but I'm very sceptical. I'm also really unsure how to proceed as I don't want to get a third R/r only to have that go out as well. What else can I look into?

As always, any and all help is appreciated.

spyug

[chef1366]

What are you using for connections?

[spyug]

What are you using for connections?

Individual spade connectors from the stator to r/r (yellow leads) and ring connectors on the ground wire and on the sense wire. Connectors are new and soldered and crimped.

Each connection is individually insulated then the "bundle" is insulted again with tape.

At this point, I can't think of what can be causing this other than another bad R/r but its so hard to believe.

I'm too numb to get anywhere with it tonight so I guess I'll tackle it again tomorrow.

thanks
Spyug.

[Steve]

If I remember correctly from your previous posts, you were getting strange results while testing the stator, right?

While testing the stator, the R/R is not even connected, so it would not affect anything.

Now you think the stator is OK?

However, spiking voltages are more likely due to a bad R/R ground or a bad R/R.

.

[spyug]

Now you think the stator is OK?

As I had mentioned, your comments to me about not getting good contact on the stator leads caused me to recheck. I realised that the insulating boots on the contacts were not allowing me to make good contact with my probes. Once I peeled them back and cleaned the contacts I got good solid readings from the low 20v at idle up to 80+ at 5000 rpm. So yes the stator is fine and the assumption then was that the stock R/r was the problem.

When I first hooked on my spare Shindengen R/R with sense wire to the battery + and the ground wire directly to the battery - everything worked beautifully around 13 volts at idle and no more than 14.8v at close to 5000rpm.

After this test the other day, I fixed the R/R in place on the frame and made all the connections but as I had the battery out, I did not hook on the sense wire or ground.

Tonight, thinking the problem was solved, I slipped the battery in place and connected the sense and ground up to it. I was going to check the synch on my carbs before putting the tank back on but prior to that thought I'd double check the charging one more time. That's when I discovered the jumping voltage once again.

I find it really hard to believe that this other R/R is bad as well as the stock one that was in there and giving me problems in the first place, but I suppose anything is possible (especially with my luck these days).

There is only one ground off the R/R but that is directly to the battery negative but the body does make a good metal to metal contact at its frame location.

I guess I am reluctant to rush out and purchase another r/r for fear of it going up in smoke too and I wish I could fine some reason to account for them failing if that's indeed what's happening. I'm more confused now than I was a day or two ago.

Thanks for the help once again.

Cheers,
Spyug

[Nessism]

Maybe you have an intermittent contact on the + output from the stator. You feeding power in the factory harness and though the OE fuse box? You might want to check Jim's revised Stator Papers instructions on how to look for resistance in the + circuit going to the battery.

[koolaid_kid]

spyug, wait. Do not move, do not pass go, do not collect $200. And especially do not purchase another R/R. Rather, send the funds to the "Send koolaid_kid to the Bahamas" fund.
It is not your R/R. The odds of have 2 bad ones, especially with the second being a Shindengen, and going bad after testing good, are astronomical.
Something is clearly rotten in the state of Denmark.
Let the collective work on this with you and the hive will work it out with you.
Your Shindengen is fine, you proved it the other day with your testing. Your numbers were right in line with all the accepted parameters.
Rather, something has changed since your initial test.
In retrospect, you have learned a valuable lesson. When you decided to fix the R/R to the frame, you should have tested it right then. One of the cardinal rules in debugging things is to make one change at a time. That way, if something is amiss, you only have one thing to investigate, the change you just made.
At this point, you need to go back to square one and start over. Since you have already done it once, the learning curve is greatly reduced. Retrace each step you took to get the Shindengen functioning correctly. Just go back to your documentation you archived for the process. You did document it, right?
I'm just kidding about the documentation, I rarely do it myself. I rely instead on the remaining brain cells that were not killed off at Woodstock. But not the retracing.
So, rather than spend money, spend time. The stator and the R/R were functioning correctly. Figure out what changed and you will have your answer.
It may be something as simple as one of the stator wires being flaky. Only testing will tell.

[capnjim]

You said you are hooking the sense to the battery? I always thought there was one for the battery and the sense was a switched power supply. 6 wires on the R/R unit. 3 from the stator, one directly to the neg and one directly to the + and one for a separate power source. Not sure if it really matters..
I'm just curious and don't really know what I am talking about. I am changing the R/R in my bike, first time dealing with the electronics. I have read just about every thread on the topic so I am curious as well as to what the problem is.
Cheers

[koolaid_kid]

Jim, it is like this: If you have a 6 wire R/R, 3 go to the stator, one goes to ground, one goes to the 12V output, and one needs to know what the battery is seeing. This wire is called the sense wire. The R/R uses this voltage to determine whether or not the battery is fully charged. If it sees too low a voltage, the R/R will allow a higher voltage to charge the battery, which is clearly not fully charged. At this point, the discussion would move to a higher level which is clearly beyond the scope of this thread. Safe to say, if the R/R increases the voltage too high, things will start to go awry. Bulbs blowing, wires melting, etc. The issue is the decay of the GS wiring harness and wiring system. Voltage drops are frequent and large in magnitude. Hence, many have wired the sense wire directly to the battery so it sees true battery voltage. But it may lead to discharging the battery if the machine is not started often enough because it has a constant current draw. Options exist, but have never been discussed here AFAIK.

[capnjim]

Thanks koolaid. I think I am starting to get it now. Its a bit of a messed up system, but at the same time, very clever.
I'm getting my new R/R next week. When I work on something, I like to know exactly what it is doing rather than just slap it in. Hopefully spyug gets it sorted out.
These bikes do give you quite the education, don't they??

[koolaid_kid]

Welcome. spyug is not the first, nor will be the last, to ask these questions and seek these answers.
It is an economical system to implement, but was done poorly, IMHO. My current ride has a similar system, stator and R/R, but the R/R is a different design and the stator is not oil heated. These two differences, combined with low quality electrical connections and wiring, are what make the Suzi system fail, IMHO. Just as radiator heated transmissions are doomed to failure. Merely my own personal observation of 4+ decades of experience, no empirical data needed nor collected.

[tom203]

Since you got spade connectors on stator leads, disconnect them and do a quick diode check of R/R's power diodes- maybe one has failed and is behaving as short circuit ; this would cause mucho R/R heating.

[spyug]

Thanks all. I'm still too annoyed to dive into it this morning and I have promised to pull and clean some carbs on my friends Ninja 250 ( anightmare I've been told).

I had thought that I would disconnect everything again and go at it step by step. Hopefully something obvious will jump up and bite me in the ass.

Cheers,
Spyug

[tom203]

Thanks all. I'm still too annoyed to dive into it this morning and I have promised to pull and clean some carbs on my friends Ninja 250 ( anightmare I've been told).
Spyug

Ninja 250 carbs-how I miss them!
loosen battery box, loosen rear fender lower mounting bolt ( but do not remove ), this lets battery box and air filter box slide back enough for a pair of midget hands to extract carbs!


this link below is helpful- they steered me to Basscliff's!

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_I_remove_the_carbs_to_work_on_them%3F

[spyug]

Yup. 2 hours worth of removing bodywork to get at the buggers. 2 minutes to pull them. They are in the dip now. Not a huge amount of gunge in them but definitely some crap in the bowls. Hopefully a good soaking overnight will get them back to where they should be.

At least I haven't had time to dwell on my issues but I might have a peak at my bike again after supper.

Cheers,
spyug