Stator Issue?

[d_giblin]

After using this forum to help me fix my bike for several years, it is finally time for my first post.


I have a 1985 GS550E. About a year and a half ago I was having electrical problems and after going through The Stator Papers on Basscliff's site and reading a ton of posts on this forum, I determined that the issue was the R/R. I installed a new Electrosport R/R along with a new battery and everything seemed to be resolved for quite a while.
About a month ago I realized that my headlight was out and shortly after that I found that my battery had been boiled almost dry. I refilled the battery with distilled water and started testing. Voltage at the battery w/engine @5k rpm was approximately 16.9v.


I went through the test papers from Electrosport step-by-step. I changed the grounding to a single point setup at the R/R mounting point and bypassed the fuse box by running the (+) output from the R/R directly to the battery with an inline fuse. I am not sure that either was absolutely necessary, but since so many folks on here have had issues with the old wiring connections, I thought that I would rather make the changes so I know they are good.


After re-wiring I tested the charging again and found that I was still having the same issues.


Testing of the stator showed 'OL' when testing each phase to ground and 0.5 Ohms phase to phase (all combinations). AC voltage @5k rpm was 75-80v on all combinations.


I then tested the R/R, one of the three diode tests that should get a reading of ~0.5 ended up reading 0.39 which, depending on where you read, is borderline, and some sources say it is in spec while others say it is out. I opted to order a used sh-530 off E-bay which tested fine when I received it. After installing the newish unit (complete with sense wire mod to brown taillight wire), I am still getting 16.2v @5k rpm.


I needed to get a new meter to do the diode test on the R/R since my first one did not have that function. After eliminating the R/R as the issue, I re-tested the stator and found that the new meter shows 0.2 Ohms in all combinations of phases and still shows 'OL' from stator outputs to ground.


After all of this I am getting very discouraged and need some help.
Is the reading from the new higher quality (Klein) meter telling me that I need a new stator? It is showing some resistance and while some sources say the reading should be 0.5 - 2.0 Ohms, I have seen others that simplify it to be <2. I don't really understand how a slightly lower resistance between phases could lead to overcharging. If anything I thought that a compromised unit would result in lower output.


I know that boiling the battery could have damaged it and I should get a new one, but from what I can tell, that would not be a factor in the overcharging and I don't want to get another battery until I know that it won't get fried.



Hopefully I have given enough background and details for someone to help me out.

[allojohn]

Voltage at the battery w/engine @5k rpm was approximately 16.9v.

You may/not have a stator issue, I'd struggle with that myself. But you definitely have a failing R/R. The output should be limited to between 14.5 and 15 volts absolute maximum. You're getting too much juice hitting the battery!

[Redman]

Thanks for the detailed description of past history related to this problem.

Two comments:

1. Too high a voltage not likley a stator problem.

2. That SH-whatever, that is a Shidnengenwhatever, with a scense wire, right?
Check voltage at where the scence wire is connected. (ah, now I see, you did say it has scence wire, tied into tail light circuit brown wire.)
I am quessing you will find the scence wire is at a normal 13.5 (or maybe 14.0) and the battery (R/R output) is at the 16 point whatever you mentioned. Is a voltage drop somewhere in the wiring from the battery to fuse box thru wiring to ignition swtich thru igniotion swtich thru wiring back to fuse box thru fuse to whereever the scense line is connected.
If that is what you find: then the R/R itsellf is working, it is putting out whatever it has to in order get 13.5 on its sence line.
Check that out, get back to us.
If you find that this is the case (and I have good idea that it is) then we can discuss how to find where the voltage drop is and/or how to work around it.

And welcome to GSR.

Dave.

PS: My daughter is there in Madison this weekend.
She is in the Ironman Triathalon.
(swim, bike, run -- 12 1/2 hours is her target.)
I tell her that I may do a triathalon on that same SundaY.
Yah, I may take a nap in three places during that same 12 - 13 hour period.

.

[d_giblin]

I originally thought that it must be the R/R too which is why I bought the replacement, but that didn't fix it. Of course it is possible that I got a bum unit, but I feel pretty confident that the Kawasaki the unit came out of doesn't usually have R/R issues and many folks on this site have purchased used units on eBay without issue. The one I got looks to be in very good physical shape and passed the diode test. I am really starting to wonder if there could be something else going on that could cause the overcharging e.g. A bad stator. I am reluctant to keep throwing parts at it without being sure they are actually faulty.

[d_giblin]

Thanks for the detailed description of past history related to this problem.

Two comments:

1. Too high a voltage not likley a stator problem.

2. That SH-whatever, that is a Shidnengenwhatever, with a scense wire, right?
Check voltage at where the scence wire is connected. (ah, now I see, you did say it has scence wire, tied into tail light circuit brown wire.)
I am quessing you will find the scence wire is at a normal 13.5 (or maybe 14.0) and the battery (R/R output) is at the 16 point whatever you mentioned. Is a voltage drop somewhere in the wiring from the battery to fuse box thru wiring to ignition swtich thru igniotion swtich thru wiring back to fuse box thru fuse to whereever the scense line is connected.
If that is what you find: then the R/R itsellf is working, it is putting out whatever it has to in order get 13.5 on its sence line.
Check that out, get back to us.
If you find that this is the case (and I have good idea that it is) then we can discuss how to find where the voltage drop is and/or how to work around it.

And welcome to GSR.

Dave.

PS: My daughter is there in Madison this weekend.
She is in the Ironman Triathalon.
(swim, bike, run -- 12 1/2 hours is her target.)
I tell her that I may do a triathalon on that same SundaY.
Yah, I may take a nap in three places during that same 12 - 13 hour period.

.

Thanks for the info, I hadn't considered that the potentially faulty wiring I bypassed early on could come back to haunt me with the new sense style R/R. I will definitely check into it and report back. Chasing bad wiring can be a real bear, but I don't mind putting in the work as long as I know I am not chasing my tail.
- good luck to your daughter and may your naps be long and restful.

[JayWB]

First point: the resistance readings you're getting, 0.5 -2.0 are fine. The 0.39 versus 0.5 ohm is fine as well. If you just connect the two meter leads to each other, effectively measuring the resistance of the meter and the leads only you'll get readings that vary at least that much. The fact that the resistance readings are very low, that is to say lower than 2 or 3 ohms consistently, is what you're really interested in.

Having said that, it is very unlikely that your stator is the problem. The stator is supposed to supply an AC voltage on each of the 3 phases. It should measure in the neighborhood of about 70 volts AC at any time. It'll go higher at higher RPMs, but should never get much lower.

It's the rectifier / regulator that is your concern here. The rectifier converts the AC voltage to DC. The REGULATOR then regulates, or controls the output to approximately 13 volts DC in order to constantly replenish the battery. Your problem is currently with the REGULATION part.

The regulator will try to maintain approximately 13 -13.5 volts above ground at all times. To do that it must obviously have a good ground to reference. If the regulator's ground is dirty, and is 1 volt away from the true battery ground then the reference is screwed up and the regulator will try to keep the voltage at 14 - 14.5 volts rather than 13 -13.5. You can see the importance of clean and tight connections.

In short, yours is a regulation problem. Check what the regulator needs, a good clean tight reference. Check that your regulator ground is connected securely to the battery ground.

[tom203]

First point: the resistance readings you're getting, 0.5 -2.0 are fine. .........

In short, yours is a regulation problem. Check what the regulator needs, a good clean tight reference. Check that your regulator ground is connected securely to the battery ground.

Yeah, what he said ( I hate typing). Also try connecting sense wire direct to battery positive, run it, and see if voltage tops out at about 14.5 volts .

[Redman]

Thanks for the info, I hadn't considered that the potentially faulty wiring I bypassed early on could come back to haunt me with the new sense style R/R. I will definitely check into it and report back. Chasing bad wiring can be a real bear, but I don't mind putting in the work as long as I know I am not chasing my tail. ....

Do check the voltage at the scence wire.
Another couple simple checks: while bike running,
- temperarily disconnect the scence wire (so it "scences" about zero volts) and see that the R/R output (battery voltage) might go even higher.
- temperarily connect the scence wire to some other hot lead like battery+ and see that R/R output (battery voltage) goes to normal.
Both of these test will prove that the R/R is doing what it should, and your problem is that what the sense wire is "seeing" is different from the batery voltage, and the R/R is then putting out whatever it has to in order to get what it wants on the scence lead.

You might say, "well, why not just connect the scence lead to the R/R output".
You could, and it would work, woulkd regulate the R/R output to appropiate voltage. But the scence lead is also a little bit of a current drain when bike is off, not much, but enough to be a drin on battery in a few days. That (and are other reasons) is why the scence lead is put to some other place that is turned off.

You say you have scence lead on the browm tail light circuit. Is a lot of connections and jumpers between there and the battery+.
Other place that is recommended is the org/grn wire to the rear brake switch. Less connectrions between there and the battery+. (and is fairly close physically to the R/R).
But we are getting ahead of ourselves.

First, measure voltage at the scence wire (and compare that to battery voltage, using same ground point)....and/or do the simple test described above.

If you find a 1.5 or 2 volt difference from the batt+ as compared to the scence lead (presently on your tail light brown wire), and I suspect you will, I also suspect you will have same on all three fused circuits (head, ignition, signal), and on that org/grn wire.

Check voltage on main fuse (I suspect will problably be okay).
THen check voltage on Headlight fuse, then ignition fuse, then signal fuse. (I suspect all three will all have same volt drop). ah... getting ahead of ourselves again.

Tell us more what you find.

.

[d_giblin]

Thank you for all of the replies and suggestions. I had a little time today so I connected the sense wire directly to the battery (+) and, as a few folks suspected, the voltage at the battery dropped to 14.3v which is absolutely fantastic.
I know that simply connecting the sense wire to the battery will create a slow drain on the system, so I spent the next several hours going over some of the more obvious electrical connections under the tank and inside the headlight cowl. I found one modular plug with 4 wires, one of which was the brown wire that goes to the taillight. The plug was particularly bad, so I cut it and replaced it with bullet connectors. I also cleaned several other plugs and the fuse panel and reconnected each after applying some dielectric grease
After all that I was hopeful that i might have found the culprit in the plug that I cut off, but I still get about a 1-1.5v difference between any switched wire and the actual battery. Due to the fairly consistent drop between all switched wires, I am thinking the actual ignition switch may be the issue.


I should mention that when I say that I cleaned the various connections I mean that I used some electrical contact cleaner and where possible a scouring pad. I believe there are better, more thorough methods, but that is what I had on hand and was under a bit of a time crunch. Ultimately I think I need to purchase some more bullet connectors (I ran out today) so that I can go through and re-do every connection.



I ran out of time today and am itching to get back on the road before the weather starts to turn, so I opted to use my last bullet connector to create a lead that goes directly to the battery (+). The connection is easily accessible, so for the short term I plan on simply unplugging the sense wire if I know that I won't be riding for a day or two.


Thanks again for all of the help. This forum and the people on it are amazing. I probably would have gotten fed up and sold my bike years ago if it weren't for this site.


I have not yet done a forum search on cleaning up the wiring yet, but if anyone has any good tips they can give me I would really appreciate it.

[Redman]

Good that you were able to understand that, and have been sucsessfull in further troubleshooting this.

......
......
After all that I was hopeful that i might have found the culprit in the plug that I cut off, but I still get about a 1-1.5v difference between any switched wire and the actual battery. Due to the fairly consistent drop between all switched wires, I am thinking the actual ignition switch may be the issue.......

Yes. Probably somewhere in either:
- wiring between main fuse and ignition swtich connector, which includes a couple spliced in connections in the wiring harness.
- ignition swtich connector
- ignition swtich internals
- wiring from ignition swtich back to fuse block
- internal to fuse block.

I had about a 2.5 volt drop (and then assocaited 2.5volt too high battery voltage). Cleaning up the internals of the ingintion swtich took care about half that. Other half was in the wiring between main fuse and the ignition swtich, which is unaccsessable without taking apart the main part of the wiring harness.

We could talk about getting out the ignition swtich.

We could talk about adding a relay (operated by where now have sence wire) to swtich the sence wire to battery+ (like you are doing yourself with the connector).

So now, you have good battery voltage, but other circuits are low.

.

PS Daugher finished Madison Ironman.
Swim 2.4 mile in 1 hour, cycle 112 miles in 6 1/2 hours, run 26 miles in 4 1/4 hour, total 12 1/4 hour.
scheesch.
I had hour nap this afternoon.
And hour of mo'cycle cleanup.

.