Kill Switch/Ignition Problem

[Hummer]

Trying to narrow down the problem here, but with the Kill Switch on "Kill", pushing the start button fires the starter, but I don't get a spark at the plugs.

With the Kill Switch on "Run", pushing the start button does nothing, but turning off the key gives me a residual spark at the plugs.

What the hell?

[koolaid_kid]

The spark just says your ignition is working.
Check the small terminal on the solenoid with the switch in RUN, key to ON, and pressing the button. Should get ~12V. If not, work backwards.
Sounds like you got a couple of wires incorrectly connected going to your kill switch.
If you don't a color wiring diagram, download one from BassCliff's site BassCliff's site

[Hummer]

Maybe I need to start simple - explain the kill switch to me.

I have 2 orange/white wires coming from the harness. One terminates at the kill switch, with another orange/white coming off the kill switch and connecting to a point on the ignition where the second orange/white connects.

Pushing the start button connects the orange/white to the green/yellow that transfers the voltage downstream to the solenoid and starter.

Just to confirm what I'm seeing with the multi-meter - where should I have juice in "run" versus "kill"?

[koolaid_kid]

O.K., let's start at the beginning. Turning the key to ON sends 12V to an Orange wire, which powers the top 3 fuses in your fuse box. The third fuse powers an Orange/White wire which goes to a connector and magically transmogrifies to an Orange wire. This Orange wire sends 12V to your kill switch. Closing the kill switch sends 12V an Orange/White wire. This O/W wire splits and feeds your ignition system and starter button.
So, in summary, kill switch OFF, ignition system and starter button sees no 12V.
Kill switch ON, both see 12V.
Make sense?

[spyug]

I would just like to add for clarity: the voltage from the battery goes to the fuse block then on via a red lead to the ignition (keyed) switch. When the key is turned to on, a jumper in the switch is positioned to transition voltage from the red to a solid orange which feeds the kill switch where the wires turn to orange with white tracers as previously mentioned.

You may find a lot of your problems arise from the ignition/kill/starter group as corroded and dirty connectors and contacts often are the cause of lowered voltages where we need them ( at the starter and coils). If you check battery voltage at rest, then with the key on voltage on the orange white wire at the coils and find voltage differences of 1 volt or more be suspect of these contacts and clean them up.

If a cleanup of contacts doesn't help then you should contemplate doing the coil relay modification which will get full battery voltage back to the coils. Low voltage at the coils obviously produces weak spark which in turn can cause harder starting.

I hope this helps a wee bit.

Good luck with it.
Spyug

[koolaid_kid]

Sure? I downloaded the colour wiring diagram for a 1000G 80-82, and followed them all the way from the key switch all the way through.
At any rate, those two connectors I mentioned are probably at fault.

[Hummer]

SOLENOID!!!!

I hope - I've celebrated great success several times over the past 2 years only to debate setting this thing on fire in a field somewhere...

The reason that the kill switch was operating backwards was b/c I was getting 12v through the green/yellow wire FROM the solenoid back to the handlebar switch. There should be nothing at green/yellow until the connection is closed with the start button on the handlebar, correct?

I'll await your approval before heading out to find a new solenoid tomorrow morning...fingers crossed!

[koolaid_kid]

You are correct. The G/Y should send 12V to the solenoid, not the other way around. Congrats. Go to the h/w store and buy one for a lawn tractor and you are done. Be sure and match the number of terminals, they come in 1 and 2 terminal styles. I believe your solenoid has the 1 terminal style.

[Hummer]

Two terminals, I think - three if you include the trigger wire from the start button. I've got one terminal that connects directly to the battery and another that connects directly to the starter motor. The solenoid is grounded through its attachment to the parts tray, correct?

[koolaid_kid]

Couple things. I use the terminology that the posts are where the battery and the starter connects. These carry the high current (it is just a high current relay that they call a solenoid.
I use the word terminal for the small wire that goes to the starter button (usually a spade connector).
You will always have 2 posts, and it looks like you have 1 terminal. The h/w store sells solenoids with 1 and 2 terminals. You want the one with 1 terminal.
While the body of the solenoid does act like a ground, I prefer to run a 14 gauge wire from a mounting bolt to a central bolt, such as the ground bolt for the engine. Insures a good ground.
Also, it does not matter which post goes to the battery, it works the same either way.

[Hummer]

Much appreciated! Thank you!

[Hummer]

So - update on the issue.

I installed a new solenoid, thinking it would solve the problem. Nope. Still 12v backfeeding on the remote wire. Started pulling pieces off the parts tray, attempting to test continuity, voltage, and trace the source of the problem. I found a few issues that have been temporarily fixed.

The smoking gun for the backfeeding voltage was a ground wire coming out of the harness. Black/white, terminated in a ring terminal, and attached to the parts tray by one of the screws holding the solenoid to the parts tray. It was supplying the 12v...meaning that somewhere, somehow, it's connected to power. More on that - as in I have absolutely no clue what's going on - later.

Once the problem ground wire was removed, I retested connections. I had the battery tray and parts holder painted when I rebuilt the bike last year, so grounding has obviously been affected. Running a new ground wire from the mount to the frame made the difference, and I've got power. The bike runs.

Looks like I have a bit of tracing to do - if one ground wire is powered, I'm sure others must be as well - several tie together throughout the harness. I just have no idea where the source of the problem is or why. I also don't understand how I was able to start the bike with no problem last week and drive it around, thinking I had solved an ignition issue. I started and stopped the bike several times with no problem. Nothing changed between then and a few days later when the bike just wouldn't start, leading me to everything up to last night...

No clue. I'm just hoping dad can enjoy riding the bike for the few weeks of warm weather we have left, and maybe I can find time over the winter to take things apart again. The joys of old bike ownership!

[MisterCinders]

If other systems on the bike are working, you probably do not have power going through the entire ground system or more than your starter relay would be failing.

As the problem emerged after riding and not after some other wiring change, perhaps the ground wire cracked or otherwise got crossed with the G/Y wire for the starter relay. This would cause a short in the starter button, but not one that would show up as your are riding, since the G/Y only goes live when you hit that button. Of course, if your starter button doesn't blow a fuse when you hit it, my theory stumbles.

In other words, what could supply power to the ground wire, but not short out or blow a fuse? It would have to be something that is switched but not always on, or the bike would eat a fuse when you turned it on.

Does that ground wire spark when you touch the frame? Do you lose any fuses?

If not, try connecting the rogue ground to the frame and then test everything, brake lights, hi-beams, horn, etc. One of those will either not work (like the solenoid) or blow a fuse. Maybe that will help you localize the bad wire.

[MisterCinders]

Couple things. I use the terminology that the posts are where the battery and the starter connects. These carry the high current (it is just a high current relay that they call a solenoid.
I use the word terminal for the small wire that goes to the starter button (usually a spade connector).
You will always have 2 posts, and it looks like you have 1 terminal. The h/w store sells solenoids with 1 and 2 terminals. You want the one with 1 terminal.
While the body of the solenoid does act like a ground, I prefer to run a 14 gauge wire from a mounting bolt to a central bolt, such as the ground bolt for the engine. Insures a good ground.
Also, it does not matter which post goes to the battery, it works the same either way.

I thought this too, but the solenoid body does not ground itself against the battery box. The ground wire from the harness to the solenoid grounds the solenoid, not the other way around.

When I rewired things this weekend, I cut the solenoid ground ring from my old harness because that mounting screw head was stripped. I figured it was no big deal, since I could locate that harness ground somewhere else. I also re-routed the R/R ground to battery negative.


Then the starter would do nothing after I installed the new harness. I checked continuity everywhere in that path. All was well, but nothing from the starter button.

Shorted the solenoid with screwdriver, starter spun. So what the hell?

Turned out that my solenoid was not grounded, so the relay would not trip.

There were other goofs in my new ground system, and I re-did the grounds last night to follow posplayer's single-point system. Maybe the solenoid self-grounds now, but I am not certain of that.