Deleting the e-starter

[850 Combat]

I have run lots of English bikes with either dead batteries or no batteries without magnetos. I don't know much about the differences in charging systems, but I know that those bikes,like Suzukis had no brushes on the alternator (Unlike some Hondas and Yamahas I have owned). The English bikes had a big capacitor mounted on a spring that supposedly stored a bit of electricity and released it into the ignition. I know that it worked fine. Is there anything there that might work to help a Suzuki start without a battery?

[Chuck78]

I recently had thought I would do a battery delete, but after reading and thinking a lot about this, I thought maybe putting a very small battery in it would help out with starting spark and keeping the lights bright well at or near idle speed.

Blower, I should be back in a week or so when some boiler pumps and various parts and piping fittings arrive. working at the corner of Verity Pkwy and Tytus. if you are down for a ride sometime or just to check out bikes, let me know. If you could PM me similar route through some nice hills & valleys that arent too far away from the area, that would be awesome. Google terrain view on maps shows a bit of topography, so that is how I have found the route I have ridden several times so far.the ones I named were the most fun for sure. Did a north of Hamilton loop that was decent, and rode E Miami River Road south of there almost to Cincinnati.

[Chuck78]

also, I have dropped my GS 750 from about 552 lbs wet down to right around 500lbs on the scales with 3/4 tank of gas, and that was not taking any really drastic measuresto get the bike to that point.lots of mods done, but no fancy aftermarket stuff or late model parts other than rotors. . The bike handles considerably better in the twisties, much quicker to respond despite having a slightly longer wheelbase with the 1100 swing arm. just riding it through the hotel parking lot the other night with no gas tank on it and then pushing it up the loading ramp into the back of my work truck, I was amazed at how much easier it was to throw around with just the gas tank weight off! that got me thinking again about doing a starter and battery delete.

[2BRacing]

Removing weight high up, like at fuel tank level, will result in much greater perceived (and real) difference in handling, than lower down at level of starter motor.

[Gorminrider]

I have run lots of English bikes with either dead batteries or no batteries without magnetos. I don't know much about the differences in charging systems, but I know that those bikes,like Suzukis had no brushes on the alternator (Unlike some Hondas and Yamahas I have owned). The English bikes had a big capacitor mounted on a spring that supposedly stored a bit of electricity and released it into the ignition. I know that it worked fine. Is there anything there that might work to help a Suzuki start without a battery?

yes- the capacitor. you can look these up as "motorcycle battery eliminator"
here's one:

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/BEC.html

looks like something out you could rip (carefully) out of an old tube tv, to me. It'd be lighter than a lead battery.
I still have trouble imagining that it'll work as well as a magneto but you get to keep your lights, I guess.
(maybe Dimont46 will report back
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...d.php?t=213821)

[TheDuke]

Thanks for the advise so far fellas. I'm not planning to race it; but, I like the idea of removing unnecessary parts to keep the weight as low as possible. I figure if I can kick start it, might as well lose the e-starter. Seems like an easy-ish 10lbs to dump.

It also doesn't have anything to do with ego. The fact is that I currently have two ways to start the bike, and weaning myself off of one saves weight. I think it is worth looking at for that reason only. Just trying to trim the fat anywhere it is easy and reasonable.

I have also heard mixed reviews on the Li batteries but really want to lose the battery box for something smaller and more hidden.

So, if I'm not trying to run without a battery, I plan to use an Li version, do I have to worry about anything regarding the starter clutch or rotor??? [Not sure what those do or how they are involved] Can I just remove the starter and plug it and call it good? Will that affect anything other than my ability to thumb-start the beast?

Just how much weight do you plan on losing?

And for what purpose?

If all you are doing is to project a macho image on the kick starter, it seems like a lot of effort for minimal gain. If that is all you are trying to do, just kick it and ignore the button.

.

[Chuck78]

this thread linked below it started out bashing the batt-pack or whatever it was called, just a small capacitor and a case filled with sand as a heatsink I assume

Post# 8 sounds well versed like an electrical engineer type guy chimed in and explained it really well. Sounds like around 4800uF (most battery delete kits offer this size, adequate isnt the greatest way to describe it, 14,000uf or 22,000uf would be much better for low rpm ignition and headlight operation).

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263871


basically to sum it up, you need something to store voltage, as you're charging system is an AC signal converted to DC pulses, & a capacitor stores enough energy for a few milliseconds and discharges it when the charging system has gaps in its pulses, so that the gaps between your charging system pulses are filled with energy discharged from the capacitor, it basically smoothes out the DC pulses to make it a more constant voltage supply. A battery is a much larger reserve than the capacitor, longer lasting at least is a way to look at it.while the bike is running, a capacitor is enough to maintain continuous proper voltage if it is sized large enough.

if your system output pulses are 14 volts, then the capacitor will match that voltage and store it for a split second and discharge as soon as the charging system output starts dropping down.

that guy mentioned adding resistors and diodes to make the capacitor function even better for this application. I would assume you'll be installed the same as a capacitor on air conditioner. On an air conditioner, they are wired in as an auxillary voltage source,too hot legs of 120 volt supply the compressor or fan,giving it a 240 volt supply, and then one leg will power of the capacitor and then the output of the capacitor well then go to a third wire going into the motor. I would imagine you would wire the charging system into the capacitor and then power the rest of the bike after that, but I would like some confirmation on this.

[Steve]

Yes, you can easily and safely remove the starter and plug the hole, and not worry about anything else. The starter clutch is a gear with a one-way drive (think "ratchet wrench with smooooth notches"). I don't think that gear even weighs half a pound. I have one here, but no way to weigh it. It will not hurt anything to leave it in place.

It is good that you do not plan on running without a battery, because the rest of the charging system will not tolerate a "no battery" situation. Lithium batteries are definitely powerful for their size, which is why they power virtually everything that needs a fair amount of power, but needs to be light enough to be portable. However, the rate of charge, the charging voltage and other specifications of your charging system are designed for LEAD-ACID, not Lithium. That will simply NOT enhance the longevity of the battery.

If you are not racing the bike, I doubt you would even be able to tell the difference, but it's your bike, enjoy it.
Hopefully you keep the maintenance up so at least it kicks easily.

.

[Chuck78]

It is good that you do not plan on running without a battery, because the rest of the charging system will not tolerate a "no battery" situation. Lithium batteries are definitely powerful for their size, However, the rate of charge, the charging voltage and other specifications of your charging system are designed for LEAD-ACID, not Lithium. That will simply NOT enhance the longevity of the battery.

.

Can you elaborate on why the rest of tge charging system can't tolerate not having a battery? What about a very large value capacitor?

Are those newer gel cell batteries substantially lighter?

I am contemplating a small 4ah battery and starter delete vs a very large 22,000uF 50vdc capacitor

[850 Combat]

yes- the capacitor. you can look these up as "motorcycle battery eliminator"
here's one:

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/BEC.html

looks like something out you could rip (carefully) out of an old tube tv, to me. It'd be lighter than a lead battery.
I still have trouble imagining that it'll work as well as a magneto but you get to keep your lights, I guess.
(maybe Dimont46 will report back
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum....php?t=213821)

I have run magnetos too. The capacitor works at least as well. When I ran a mag on the Atlas, I had to have the alternator too for the lights, which of course dimmed at idle badly. I would go to any Brit bike parts place for the Capacitor. Unlike the GS, every Norton part is still available.

[Gorminrider]

I have run magnetos too. The capacitor works at least as well. When I ran a mag on the Atlas, I had to have the alternator too for the lights, which of course dimmed at idle badly. I would go to any Brit bike parts place for the Capacitor. Unlike the GS, every Norton part is still available.

Interesting!
Too bad my starter-motor is in a kind of pit, on this engine....if it were "hanging out" in plain view and accessible like some bikes, I can almost imagine a crank like a Ford model T -man, that'd be a conversation starter!

[Steve]

Can you elaborate on why the rest of tge charging system can't tolerate not having a battery? What about a very large value capacitor?

The charging system on these bikes uses a shunt-style regulator. That means that the stator will put out as much as it can, ALL THE TIME, and the output is rather directly related to engine speed. Whatever the bike does not need for coils, lights, charging the battery, etc., is shunted directly to ground to waste it. If you don't have a battery to re-charge, more is going to be wasted, adding to the load that the regulator has to shunt.

Why not a capacitor? Rather simple, actually. What is going to power the coils while you are trying to start the bike?

Are those newer gel cell batteries substantially lighter?

A true "gel" cell battery does not usually have the current capacity to handle an electric starter, but in your case, it might work. Is it lighter? Not by much, unless you get one with absolute MINIMAL capacity.

I am contemplating a small 4ah battery and starter delete vs a very large 22,000uF 50vdc capacitor

Not sure what good the capacitor is going to do in that setup or what your "starter delete" is (removing the starter motor?), but the battery might work.

.

[Chuck78]

I have a Shindengen SH775 series regulator, which seemed to me to be 1,000 times better than a shunt! Also, I read of a 22,000uF battery delete cap from developed by a huge critic of battery delete kits that the very large cap took about 1/2 a kickstart engine rotation to fully charge the capacitor, which basically equated to slightly longer that just a quick push of the button to instantaneously start the bike.

Dropping the weight of the battery/starter etc is just one more step to making a 550lb bike into a 485lb superbike, & itll handle much better.

For the low cost of surplus caps, I may try one out in the future

[Chuck78]

http://www.goodluckbuy.com/100v-2200...1205050mm.html




I was thinking of trying out something like that, a very large capacitor in a very high current handling capability. sounds like a series regulator-rectifier like the sh775 or compufire is a must. Got it already

[Gorminrider]

The charging system on these bikes uses a shunt-style regulator. That means that the stator will put out as much as it can, ALL THE TIME, and the output is rather directly related to engine speed. Whatever the bike does not need for coils, lights, charging the battery, etc., is shunted directly to ground to waste it. If you don't have a battery to re-charge, more is going to be wasted, adding to the load that the regulator has to shunt.

huh? but they do that anyways...what's that got to do with running battery-less?
Because after all,"the stator will put out as much as it can, ALL THE TIME," depending on rpm and doesn't "know" or carethat there's a battery there or not. Or lights, or coils or anything else, for that matter.
as to the coils, (ignition generally) that IS what the capacitor is running, isn't it?
But a person would need to disable the Always-On nanny lights...