power conservation - saving the stator

[bwanna]

OK I looked over thsi for a while, but since you did not make it clear what is original v.s. what was changed it is a little like an easter egg hunt.


Link to Revised PHASE A of Stator Pages:

Thanks so much for looking this over. You've given me a lot to review.

[bwanna]

OK I looked over this for a while, but since you did not make it clear what is original v.s. what was changed it is a little like an easter egg hunt.
Here's the Stock Wiring diagram for this bike.

http://www.4shared.com/download/-aQh7HhBba/Wiring_Diagram_GS450_T_-_origi.jpg?lgfp=3000

However what I could glean is that you have restructured the traditional O/G, O/R and O/W corresponding to SIGNAL, HEADLAMP and IGNITION. The original fuse box seems to have been eliminated, but as mentioned you did not retain these three circuits.
The Stock wiring only had O/W for the IGNITION.
The HID and Driving lights have relays as close to those devices as practical so that avoids most of any voltage drops. The HID also has a cutout which also seems to cutout the driving lights as well. This is a good thing considering the current that the HIDs pull on power-up. In contrast the SSPB only controls the O/R HEADLAMP circuit from the fuse box with all the current still running through the left hand switch and an check panel if you have one.

Changing the headlight from halogen to HID allowed me the opportunity to remove the left hand switch from carrying the load.
The SSPB does also have a "START" cutout as well, but apparently the HID needs a longer time to warm up. Not sure this is really necessary, it is the start that needs the boost not necessarily the battery after the bike is started and running.

I'm going to redo this and use a transistor to cutout the HID relay instead of another relay.

Since I cant find a fusebox anymore and there doesn't seem to be a fuse for the SIGNAL I'm assuming that all other power for SIGNAL and IGNITION is going through the ignition switch and is fuse with the same large Main fuse. The SIGNAL and IGNITION circuits were originally fused as 10 amps a piece. With LED's the SIGNAL circuit could certainly be reduce. The 10amps for ignition is also a bit large. As I mentioned since I don't these fuse then you have lumped them together with the main.

This may not be that bad , except I suspect your main fuse is larger than the 15 amp standard or even a 10 amp that you could probably get away with once converting to LED's. The problem I'm guessing is that you are running the air horn off of the same main fuse and if that is a Wolo it recommends a 20 amp fuse. So if you have a 20-30 amp fuse in the main you don't have even the course granularity of the original OEM fuse box. (15 amps total, 10 amps per circuit).

So, I was real concerned by your observations and agreed with your suggestions. Then I looked at the Stock diagram and remembered that the R/R was not fused to the IGNITION Switch, but only fused to the Battery. WOW.

I would strongly recommend removing the air horn from the main fuse and putting it in parallel with it's own fuse direct to the battery. That way your main fuse could be dropped to 10-15 amps.

Agreed. Will redesign so the LOAD is directly from the battery via dedicated fuse. Of course the Horn Switch is driven by the Ignition Power.

Another point about the main fuse and the R/R fuse you have. This is redundant and unnecessary at the same time. The R/R leg doesn't need to be fuse as the R/R can only generate so much current (18-19 amps) and that is if nothing else is on and you are still spinning the motor off at 5K RPM.
The R/R fuse is also in series with the Main so it is redundant. That is why Suzuki only designed the original fuse box to have a single main 15 amp on the battery before combining at the "T" with the R/R(+) and going to the ignition switch.

Help me understand. The R/R doesn't need fuse? Let me ask. If we assume the battery isn't connected, and the bike is running, would a short fry the R/R? Not that I'm looking to do this, just for the sake of understanding what the impact would be if there was a short without a fuse in the connect to the R/R.


Finally, you have a lot of devices and connections between the R/R and the Battery ; I would suggest taking some measurements according to the Revised Phase A procedure of the stator pages and see if the voltage drops are within the recommended range.

I had the same concerns when setting this up and tested the system. All voltages are very good. The key improvement was running a heavy dedicated ground wire from the R/R to the Battery GND.

Link to Revised PHASE A of Stator Pages:

I'm going to build a version #2, but remove 2 of the relays for space and make it neater.

UPDATE: I've found a few drawing errors in the custom wiring diagram... will upload the corrects soon.


How would this work you think?

http://www.4shared.com/download/hlUzutBXba/Redesign.jpg?lgfp=3000

[posplayr]

I'm going to build a version #2, but remove 2 of the relays for space and make it neater.

UPDATE: I've found a few drawing errors in the custom wiring diagram... will upload the corrects soon.


How would this work you think?
http://www.4shared.com/download/hlUz....jpg?lgfp=3000

OK I understated now, that you never had a fuze box to start with.

Yes the lights are well configured.

On the headlamp cut out I would use something better protected and suited to the job. Are you just planning to solder an Transistor into the harness? I would use a small vector board for a IC with that specific purpose. There are either High Side or Low Side switches.

If there was a direct short with only the R/R running, your voltage would drop to to the point the bike would quite running.

You don't want to run the bike with the battery disconnected to try this so it is kind of a theoretical question as you noted. The R/R can not put out more than 18 amps. So if you ask for more the output voltage drops. You will already be supplying 11 amps without a battery to charge and a short would probably drop the voltage enough that the bike will stop running and the 18 amps of current will just collapse as the RPM drops.

I assume you would power the horn from a relay if it requires 15+ amps. The Wolo suggested install is to just use the two wires that go to your stock horn as the controls (85/86) on a Bosch relay. This takes the load of the harness.


So what is very good when you measured the voltage drops between R/R and battery at 5K RPM?

[bwanna]

OK I understated now, that you never had a fuze box to start with.

Yes the lights are well configured.

On the headlamp cut out I would use something better protected and suited to the job. Are you just planning to solder an Transistor into the harness? I would use a small vector board for a IC with that specific purpose. There are either High Side or Low Side switches.

If there was a direct short with only the R/R running, your voltage would drop to to the point the bike would quite running.

You don't want to run the bike with the battery disconnected to try this so it is kind of a theoretical question as you noted. The R/R can not put out more than 18 amps. So if you ask for more the output voltage drops. You will already be supplying 11 amps without a battery to charge and a short would probably drop the voltage enough that the bike will stop running and the 18 amps of current will just collapse as the RPM drops.

I assume you would power the horn from a relay if it requires 15+ amps. The Wolo suggested install is to just use the two wires that go to your stock horn as the controls (85/86) on a Bosch relay. This takes the load of the harness.


So what is very good when you measured the voltage drops between R/R and battery at 5K RPM?

Re: the R/R, while it makes sense what you're saying, I'm still a bit surprised that there isn't a fuse for it's output.

My plan was to just solder in the transistor/resistor combo into the back of the relay socket. There's plenty of room and it would be protected from vibration, etc. The 6-fuse/2-relay setup is taken from a late 70's/early 80's Jeep. It's a nice tight setup and the perfect size to fit behind the side cover.

What do you think about this slight redesign of the fuse/relay setup?

http://www.4shared.com/download/VTddhed-ba/Redesign__1_.jpg?lgfp=3000

[posplayr]

Re: the R/R, while it makes sense what you're saying, I'm still a bit surprised that there isn't a fuse for it's output.

My plan was to just solder in the transistor/resistor combo into the back of the relay socket. There's plenty of room and it would be protected from vibration, etc. The 6-fuse/2-relay setup is taken from a late 70's/early 80's Jeep. It's a nice tight setup and the perfect size to fit behind the side cover.

What do you think about this slight redesign of the fuse/relay setup?

http://www.4shared.com/download/VTdd....jpg?lgfp=3000

I don't think it will work. Depending upon the transistor and solenoid it might not provide the required current. A Darlington pair is usually used to do this.

When your start is not active, it is not really low; it is open. The Vbe will pull the open line high and nothing will flow. I don't use transistors normally and I have forgotten more about them than I remember. I would use a FET for this.

This might help you with the transistor circuit. There is a figure on the next to last page. Even that wont work though as you start signal is active high and is open when not powered. Open and ground are two different things. You would need a pull down as well.

http://techhouse.brown.edu/~dmorris/projects/tutorials/transistor.switches.pdf

I had already suggested getting a High Side of Low side switch. They are made to do exactly what you are trying to do and typically have a protected FET in them. Might cost a couple of buck but you are only doing one.

Something easy to do is get a prototyping board and some parts at radio Shack and do some experimentation using the relay. It would be a learning experience.

Otherwise just use a mechanical relay. Not sure why you feel like that one relay out of all the others should be solid state?
You can search for parts on Digikey and then either order from them, or find one on ebay. That is what I do.

Solid state relays

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/relays/solid-state-relays/1048664

FET's

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/discrete-semiconductor-products/fets-single/1376381

You might also try this.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=2011858#post2011858

[bwanna]

Well Posplayr, I think this is what I'll stick with. Not going to reduce the number of relays. Don't want to fix something that ain't broke. This schematic has a couple of corrections I found while adding a more robust power source for the driving HIDs. It seemed tapping off the Headlight HID didn't support the combined amps. So I ran a separate fused line tapped from the battery connection at the starter solenoid and added a better relay driven by the switch I installed at the right handlebar. Voila! The driving HIDs are as bright as can be.

I also removed the fuse right after the R/R as that was redundant. However, you'll notice that I still have the fuse in the main fuse box that insulates the bat/RR from the rest of the circuits. This was left mostly because I didn't want to dismantle the box. Also, it might come in handy if I ever need to troubleshoot circuits in the future.

http://www.4shared.com/download/pK3mCK5cba/Suzuki_GS450T_Custom_wiring_-_.jpg?lgfp=3000

[posplayr]

Well Posplayr, I think this is what I'll stick with. Not going to reduce the number of relays. Don't want to fix something that ain't broke.

Well sorry you did not see the Mod before; That solution was the simplest to the problem you had posed.