Overall Electrical Woes

[OldVet66]

Ok, I'm listening but your cryptic talking is confusing. Shoot it to me straight.

I was a Commercial Electrician, retired into computer repair and Posplayr is so far above my level that I'm not sure I understand what he is talking about all the time, but I have more than a clue. He is shooting it to you straight, and is probably just as frustrated as you that you don't understand what he is saying. Leave your ego at the door and ask questions if you don't understand, I guarantee you will get your answer or enough information to figure it out yourself. People like Jim are not always the best teachers because they think at a level that I could only envy if I was that type of person. I'm not, but certainly smart enough to take every opportunity to learn from him when I can. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask or are to proud to ask. Troubleshooting over the internet is extremely difficult because there are so many variables. Hang in there. I believe this forum is extremely successful in helping people solve their problems and I know for a fact that it has helped me greatly. The bike you see in my signature was a basket case when I bought it. I knew virtually nothing about fixing my own motorcycle. They dragged me kicking and screaming to being a fair hand with the old bike, It can happen to you if you let it.

[posplayr]

Ok, I'm listening but your cryptic talking is confusing. Shoot it to me straight. What do I need to do? And should I not suspect the Stator because the phases are not producing the same voltages at idle?

If you had read most of the testing procedures in the original stator pages, quick test and both the revised phase A and B test they all require at some point running the bike to 5k rpm.

You appear to have decided that you can diagnose the electrical system by making measurements only a little above idle.
While this is bad enough as there is no basis for it you then started asking question try to use that low rpm approach without telling anybody.

i guess you have your own reasons for not fixing your exhaust, but you wasting most peoples time around here trying to use there low rpm tests you have invented.

i suspect that you can have your electrical system working in relatively short order or at least have it correct sly diagnosed if you
a: do the Quick Test and report the results and then perform the recommendations based on those results.

[tom203]

Ok, I'm listening but your cryptic talking is confusing. Shoot it to me straight. What do I need to do? And should I not suspect the Stator because the phases are not producing the same voltages at idle?

Do the Quick Test... And report all 6 results

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?164993-Charging-System-QUICK-TEST/page2&p=1272192#post1272192

Low speed testing proves little as stator is not producing much

[Gorminrider]

In the mean time, it's not that hard to take the cover off and look at the stator. I am guessing you will be disgusted with the nasty burned thing you will see.

And here's a question for whoever might know that may save the 5k rpm requirement... If you put a light bulb of a certain wattage in series with each stator leg, wouldn't the shorted/bad one show as brighter?

[posplayr]

In the mean time, it's not that hard to take the cover off and look at the stator. I am guessing you will be disgusted with the nasty burned thing you will see.

And here's a question for whoever might know that may save the 5k rpm requirement... If you put a light bulb of a certain wattage in series with each stator leg, wouldn't the shorted/bad one show as brighter?

the good ones would be brightest and shorted least. With the light bulb load it would still be good to measure voltages across the bulbs but that would be a funtion of rpm and bulb wattage.

and yes if the stator is obviously fried, damaged or missing then a 5k test is not nesessary till you replace it.

[81GS850]

In the mean time, it's not that hard to take the cover off and look at the stator. I am guessing you will be disgusted with the nasty burned thing you will see.

And here's a question for whoever might know that may save the 5k rpm requirement... If you put a light bulb of a certain wattage in series with each stator leg, wouldn't the shorted/bad one show as brighter?

Ive taken the stator cover off. It's not showing any discoloration, but it's the oe wiring color is still there. I'll prob take it to work and hi pot it. Anyone recommend a stator that's good value? I'm not looking to spend the most on this. But don't want it failing in a couple of years.

[Steve]

Anyone recommend a stator that's good value?

I will have my next batch in a few days.

$85, shipped to your door, if you are in the USA.

Includes a one-year warranty.

Personally, I would also recommend changing the R/R to a series-type, like Polaris or Compufire.

.

[Gorminrider]

I was thinking you'd see something like this....with varnish that flakes off with a fingernail in places...

the good ones would be brightest and shorted least.

I wasn't very plain but I was thinking per no RPM...ie just a lightbulb and a battery hooked up to a couple of stator leads such that the resistance of the windings would be less in a shorted stator. ...some kind of test that would help where a motor doesn't run...

[posplayr]

I wasn't very plain but I was thinking per no RPM...ie just a lightbulb and a battery hooked up to a couple of stator leads such that the resistance of the windings would be less in a shorted stator. ...some kind of test that would help where a motor doesn't run...

You are still leaving out some details. "a battery"........ 12V???

It is a test I guess but not very good one. Just idling the bike will put more voltage onto the stator than a battery.

Tests are usually performed to identify specific failure mods. In the case of a PM stator, this is difficult to do with out some special test equipment like a Megger.

I have proposed "cheap" methods for load testing but the voltage source is always the EMF from the stator at 5K rpm.

meggers are not that expensive (probably less than $200) so that is the way to go if you want to do this without running a bike.

I just did a quick look on ebay, this one is even under $100 shipped. I have no personal experience with these but it seems like it might be useful, however the Revised Phase B tests at 5000 rpm are known to be a pretty comprehensive tests and seldom subject to misdiagnosis if properly performed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2500V-20G-Ohm-Digital-Insulation-Megger-Tester-DY30-2-/320721858564

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Megger-1000M-1000V-Insulation-tester-resistance-meter-/390318475183

[81GS850]

posplayr,

Have you ever seen or heard of an instance with unbalanced legs at idle that turned out to be fine at 5k?

[posplayr]

posplayr,

Have you ever seen or heard of an instance with unbalanced legs at idle that turned out to be fine at 5k?

I don't know what you mean by "unbalance" specifically with regard to values from nominal.

Depending upon your situation, it might be that the second law of stator testing applies.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?223164-FIRST-and-SECOND-LAW-of-Stator-testing&highlight=

[81GS850]

unbalanced as in the three phases are unbalanced.. IE two are producing 15 VAC at idle and one is producing 2.5 VAC at idle. I would conclude that this is a failed test based on the link you posted about if it fails at low level, it will only fail worse at high level. That's kind of the assumption I was working on when I was attempting to diagnose at idle and getting various readings at idle.

[Gorminrider]

It is a test I guess but not very good one.

I went and tried it and it isn't as easy as I hoped.

with my home-wound stator , a headlamp hi-beam and a 12v car battery , It is too hard to discern any change in brightness. The loads do not match well enough I suppose. BUT still, there is a voltage drop to look at....
without the stator in series I got 11.79vdc
with a "good"stator in series trying the various legs, I see 10.51vdc across the lamp. That's a 1 .25 volt difference to try and discern a fault with... I would really want a load that matches the R of the stator better.

But I will try it again and "better" if I get a bad stator to play with...

[posplayr]

unbalanced as in the three phases are unbalanced.. IE two are producing 15 VAC at idle and one is producing 2.5 VAC at idle. I would conclude that this is a failed test based on the link you posted about if it fails at low level, it will only fail worse at high level. That's kind of the assumption I was working on when I was attempting to diagnose at idle and getting various readings at idle.

Given it is an imbalance of 7:1 it is most likely going to be just as bad at 5K RPM. So there is probably little risk changing it.

[posplayr]

I went and tried it and it isn't as easy as I hoped.

with my home-wound stator , a headlamp hi-beam and a 12v car battery , It is too hard to discern any change in brightness. The loads do not match well enough I suppose. BUT still, there is a voltage drop to look at....
without the stator in series I got 11.79vdc
with a "good"stator in series trying the various legs, I see 10.51vdc across the lamp. That's a 1 .25 volt difference to try and discern a fault with... I would really want a load that matches the R of the stator better.

But I will try it again and "better" if I get a bad stator to play with...

Part of the problem is knowing what resistance the load will be and how much voltage that corresponds to at the loaded legs.

But at only 12v that is not any better than idling.

The whole point of a stator test is to stress it with a higher voltage than a 12V battery. Although a 12V battery if better than a 3V ohm meter test.

And if you are really interested use a megger...............