Electrical Short Question

[CrazyCloud]

Sounds good, I will check the harness over and then upgrade r/r. Thanks for taking the time to help pos, I really appreciate it.

[Redman]

So the charging system is working, it does charge, so is not something completely failed in the charging system (but, yah, still could intermittently short out).

It seems that your fuse blowing is fairly regular, like with in a few minutes, right...? Not as soon as turn on key, but with in a few minutes of the bike running. Does it happen if just sitting there running or do you have to be going down the road?

I might suggest that you have some time to try a few expereiments before just trying replacing expensive stuff.

Try disconnecting the horn(s). RIde around some ands se if it doesn't blow the fuse.
The horn(s) have power to them all the time (even if not pushing the horn button) and can have either a hard constant short to ground or just waiting to get bumped around to short to ground.

With key on, Try wiggling cables around, especially the harness that goes around the steering neck. See if that makes it blow the fuse.
Also wiggle around other cables, look for cables that go past or along the frame, especially any edge of anything.

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[posplayr]

So the charging system is working, it does charge, so is not something completely failed in the charging system (but, yah, still could intermittently short out).

It seems that your fuse blowing is fairly regular, like with in a few minutes, right...? Not as soon as turn on key, but with in a few minutes of the bike running. Does it happen if just sitting there running or do you have to be going down the road?

I might suggest that you have some time to try a few expereiments before just trying replacing expensive stuff.

Try disconnecting the horn(s). RIde around some ands se if it doesn't blow the fuse.
The horn(s) have power to them all the time (even if not pushing the horn button) and can have either a hard constant short to ground or just waiting to get bumped around to short to ground.

With key on, Try wiggling cables around, especially the harness that goes around the steering neck. See if that makes it blow the fuse.
Also wiggle around other cables, look for cables that go past or along the frame, especially any edge of anything.

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A horn is not pulling current unless you hear something. Also he is blowing 20 amps so there is no "normal" load. It is some type of "abnormal" short. Question where is it?

Without any fuses to remove, he has to start removing connectors. Without any obvious broken wires the diodes in the R/R are the most likely fault.

[CrazyCloud]

Redman, it will idle forever and rev just fine in the garage. It is blowing the fuse after about 2-3 minutes of being driven on the street. I did resistance and ground tests on the stator, was worried I had pinched those wires putting the stator cover on. It checked out OK. I will do some 'wiggle tests' in likely areas of the harness.

I did find some goofy improv wiring for the rear turn signals, not likely the problem though. Got it cleaned up nicely. The big thing I found was that the connector that had formerly gone to the fairing had moved and the wire ends were hitting on the triple tree; seems like a likely cause. I clipped off the connector and insulated the wire ends.

I already ordered a r/r, and I am going to do the coil relay mod after that install is tested. I have a good relay and fuse holder sitting around so I figured 'why not'? Continuing to clean up connections in the mean time. I hope you guys are getting some miles on in the warmer weather, I hope to be soon!

[Redman]

A horn is not pulling current unless you hear something. .............

Unless is some abnormal thing going in in the horn, to where a wire in the coil of wire is loose and shorts to ground, or something built up on the contacts in there that might short to ground and blow fuse without having pushed the button and/or without the horn sounding.
(Horn(s) having power to it all the time, the horn button makes the connection to the ground when the button pushed.)
(And I mean power TO them, DC volts TO them, and if a problem inside the horn could short the DC power to ground.)

Normal:
---- DC power+ Signal Fuse -------Org/Grn ------ Horn(s) ---- Grn -------- Horn Button -----Blk/Wht------- Ground.

If Problem in side the Horn:
---- DC power+ Signal Fuse -------Org/Grn ------ directly to ground thru horn mounting

Redman, it will idle forever and rev just fine in the garage. It is blowing the fuse after about 2-3 minutes of being driven on the street. .......

My suspicion is that within that 2-3 minutes something vibrates or some bump in road moves something, and that causes the short and blows fuse real quick when that does happen.
As opposed to something is slightly over the amp limit of the fuse, only when riding bike, and takes a while to blow the fuse.

Some wire harness worn thru someplace so some wire shorts to frame somewhere when something rattles around.
... or problem in the horn.
... or problem with the R/R (but I would think once R/R failed it would be a hard constant always problem, not intermittent. But, yah, maybe after it warms up, electronics can change).

If doing the cable wiggle trial, also do "bump the handle bar" trail. Have heard of loose wire or build of of stuff on the inside of the controls, say, kill swtich or starter button, that can short power to the ground.

When doing the wiggle trial, dont need to have engine running, so can take tank off to get access to the wiring harness. (Do need key on, maybe put charger on battery so battery doesnt go so low during all this.)

And try turning handle bars from side to side, while watching wiring harness move around sterring neck.

Also pull headlight and wiggle around harness and connectors in there.

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[posplayr]

Unless is some abnormal thing going in in the horn, to where a wire in the coil of wire is loose and shorts to ground, or something built up on the contacts in there that might short to ground and blow fuse without having pushed the button and/or without the horn sounding.
(Horn(s) having power to it all the time, the horn button makes the connection to the ground when the button pushed.)
(And I mean power TO them, DC volts TO them, and if a problem inside the horn could short the DC power to ground.)

Normal:
---- DC power+ Signal Fuse -------Org/Grn ------ Horn(s) ---- Grn -------- Horn Button -----Blk/Wht------- Ground.

If Problem in side the Horn:
---- DC power+ Signal Fuse -------Org/Grn ------ directly to ground thru horn mounting


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There are a few things that have power to them all the time (IGN SW,FuseBox,R/R,Solenoid).
There are many things connected to the harness that have power applied when the IGN is on(including the Horn).
So theoretically anything with power applied (including the harness itself ) could develop a short to ground.

Recalling from my memory banks, the historical top list of causes of shorts are:

• Bare or broken wires
• Shorting mounting bolts (at the coil)
• R/R's
• Melted fuse boxes
• Melted connectors
• On rare occasion Internally Shorted Horn.

I don't recall shorting horns to be reported much as the cause of blown fuses. Could happen and it could be vibration induced as well. Those are all guesses, the only thing we know for sure is the Fuse Blows. The OP is in the whitewater of statistical guessing to minimize his time to repair. What is the best approach?

As I inferred, a statistical approach weighted by "time to diagnose" can produce an optimal solution. Given that everything you try costs time (if not money) what trials is the most likely to produce a positive result where you have diagnosed the problem in the shortest time. Anything could be vibration sensitive, and so you could go through a process of elimination removing things you don't need and ridding around till the fuse blows or you confirm that it does not blow.

#1 Looking for Bare or broken wires is an alternative way to look for something that might be shorting after riding and there is movement. Shorting wires is also high on the list of known faults. I would do this first as at it costs little, can be done fairly quickly after removing the gas tank and should provide the opportunity for spraying some contact cleaner for maintenance. So time wasted is actually minimum if you attribute the time to needed maintenance. We know now that this did not yield anything obvious.

What next? What is most likely with the minimum time repair at lowest cost? It is certainly low cost to revert back to this trial and error vibration induced short search. It is however not particularly economical in terms of time. In addition the only items that historically tend to short out are the R/R's and Coils bolts. So while looking for vibration induced problems costs little (except gas to drive around the block) it is expensive in terms of time and low probability in terms of historical record. What to do next?

#2, My conclusion and therefore my recommendation to jump right the replacement of the R/R despite what appears to be reasonable (if only functional ) charging is A.) The high likelihood of the R/R being the problem (given no other visible shorts are indicated) and the high probability of failure in such devices. In addition, biased as I am, I would consider the replacement of a OLD Style split R and R to a new SH775 or at least a Honda 6 wire unit as a "mandatory" maintenance task, and so it is no cost to diagnosis. It is highly recommended before the stator gets any more stress and the OP can save what Remaining Useful Life he has in it. Will that fix the problem? Probably? Possibly? We dont know. But it is likely that it will and at nearly zero time lost given we consider it necessary maintenance.

Alternatively, it could have been the OP has more time than money and he would choose to chase down this vibration induced shorting. Consider the case that our high likelihood candidate (the R/R) is the culprit and we choose to not change it but rather test everything else. How long do we and how many items do we test till we conclude by a process of elimination that it is in fact the R/R that is the remaining source of the short because we can't find it any other place. Even the cheapest GSR tightwads will have to acquiesce at some point and swap out the R and R. Would it not be better to just change it and get the maintenance done (R and R upgrade) and probably solve the problem the quickest?

Now if after changing out the R/R and cleaning up the grounds and charging connections in the process we still have shorts blowing the Main, then that would be a real puzzler? And then you would have to start eliminating things, but as mentioned above, that would be a lengthy process. At that point I would be tempted to go to a multi fuse position fuse box to help isolate circuits.

[CrazyCloud]

Well just took a spin after replacing the r/r and insulating the exposed plug I had found. No blown fuse this time. I'm not calling it fixed yet, but it seems promising!

[Redman]

POS,

I have heard of horn short out internally, and blow fuse.
And many folks would not suspect them since were not pushing the horn button at the time.
But, yeah, probably low chance.



CC Jason,
Well, that seems like it lasted longer than previous.
Good.
Go for another couple test rides, and I would say you have fixed it... well, unless in changing the R/R you also moved some wiring harness away from what ever it was shorting out against before.

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[posplayr]

POS,

I have heard of horn short out internally, and blow fuse.
And many folks would not suspect them since were not pushing the horn button at the time.
But, yeah, probably low chance.


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I added it to my list in the post above

[posplayr]

Well just took a spin after replacing the r/r and insulating the exposed plug I had found. No blown fuse this time. I'm not calling it fixed yet, but it seems promising!

While you are waiting do the Quick Test to check your charging voltages. If that is OK do the Revised Phase A tests to make sure those voltage drops are in fact low.

[CrazyCloud]

While you are waiting do the Quick Test to check your charging voltages. If that is OK do the Revised Phase A tests to make sure those voltage drops are in fact low.

10-4 on that, my voltmeter is on the fritz, so I did not check before the run. I plan on doing both of those before the bike goes onto the street again. I am concerned about voltage drop where I have the sense wire located (rear brake switch). If I get overcharging I will likely run the sense off a relay.