No voltmeter, no start, low charge???

[Guest]

Hi Everyone,
My posts tend to be long; hopefully one of our electrical gurus will find a minute to read..
I have been trying to get my 84 1150EF reliable and ready for some longer rides.
Spring last year the upgrades included a new Ricks stator and a Compufire RR, this took me from a marginal 13ish volts to a solid 14+volts, tick that one off.
The work was done in next doors barn, and I was treated to a 3 pin Wurth sealed connector set, rated for 13Amps for the 3 stator wires by the owner. (Brother in Law & Nephew). The pos and neg go to the battery, with another ground from the RR housing to the frame.
No charging concerns last year, but not many miles as we had an oil leak at the base gasket.
This year,no more oil leak, (gaskets, seals, rings, APE studs and nuts)
Charging voltage confirmed with my old VOM at 14.2v.
Enjoy a wonderful 60 mile ride, running great, no flashing idiot lights or leaks, stop to stretch legs, admire view and the bike.. get kitted up again, hop on, but does not want to turn over, crap.. why did I not install that $5 ebay volt meter?? or park at the top of a hill?
Pulled the headlamp connector (it has a 100 / 75W H4), almost, but not quite. Called CAA/AAA...
Tried again after a few minutes and she burst into life, cancelled call for help, thank you cell phone..
Headed for home, stalled once but started fine..
Shut off, battery only 12.5v and charging only 13v at 2500/3000rpm. not good..
Charge battery, examined my little 3 pin connector, (disconnected) no sign of overheating anywhere, run the quick test
1. Batt volts, 5 hours after charging 12.74v
2.Key on, HL connected, 10 seconds 12.04v
3. Idle, 1000rpm 13.40
1500rpm 14.26
4. 2500rpm 14.20
5. 4000rpm(too noisy at 5k) 14.20
6. Battery volts, ign off 13.50

Everything now seems fine?? I am in the process of adding that voltmeter, it will have to go to the battery, with a relay and fuse, as the accessory connectors only seem to have about 8v, thinking there might be a problem in the ign switch? (There is battery volts at the screws in the fuse box, so maybe from there?)
Should I be suspicious of that "Wurth" connector, could eliminate and solder? or could it be something else?
I think relays for headlamp and maybe ignition will have to go on the list...
Your thoughts will be appreciated.
Regards

[posplayr]

Hi Everyone,
My posts tend to be long; hopefully one of our electrical gurus will find a minute to read..
I have been trying to get my 84 1150EF reliable and ready for some longer rides.
Spring last year the upgrades included a new Ricks stator and a Compufire RR, this took me from a marginal 13ish volts to a solid 14+volts, tick that one off.
The work was done in next doors barn, and I was treated to a 3 pin Wurth sealed connector set, rated for 13Amps for the 3 stator wires by the owner. (Brother in Law & Nephew). The pos and neg go to the battery, with another ground from the RR housing to the frame.
No charging concerns last year, but not many miles as we had an oil leak at the base gasket.
This year,no more oil leak, (gaskets, seals, rings, APE studs and nuts)
Charging voltage confirmed with my old VOM at 14.2v.
Enjoy a wonderful 60 mile ride, running great, no flashing idiot lights or leaks, stop to stretch legs, admire view and the bike.. get kitted up again, hop on, but does not want to turn over, crap.. why did I not install that $5 ebay volt meter?? or park at the top of a hill?
Pulled the headlamp connector (it has a 100 / 75W H4), almost, but not quite. Called CAA/AAA...
Tried again after a few minutes and she burst into life, cancelled call for help, thank you cell phone..
Headed for home, stalled once but started fine..
Shut off, battery only 12.5v and charging only 13v at 2500/3000rpm. not good..
Charge battery, examined my little 3 pin connector, (disconnected) no sign of overheating anywhere, run the quick test
1. Batt volts, 5 hours after charging 12.74v
2.Key on, HL connected, 10 seconds 12.04v
3. Idle, 1000rpm 13.40
1500rpm 14.26
4. 2500rpm 14.20
5. 4000rpm(too noisy at 5k) 14.20
6. Battery volts, ign off 13.50

Everything now seems fine?? I am in the process of adding that voltmeter, it will have to go to the battery, with a relay and fuse, as the accessory connectors only seem to have about 8v, thinking there might be a problem in the ign switch? (There is battery volts at the screws in the fuse box, so maybe from there?)
Should I be suspicious of that "Wurth" connector, could eliminate and solder? or could it be something else?
I think relays for headlamp and maybe ignition will have to go on the list...
Your thoughts will be appreciated.
Regards

The Quick test seems OK but you are describing something intermittent that probably has nothing to do with the charging and more likely to do with switches.

You say "nothing" happens which is of little help. So without anything else to go on clean the ignition and kill switch with DeOxit.

[Gorminrider]

That is a frustrating story. Everyone likes to Find and strangle the Gremlin, and not have the gremlin escape to emerge another day...

BUT you should find something close to your battery/charging voltages somewhere in the headlight bucket or ignition switch to attach your little VM to. That might be a clue. -8volts is not close.
. Look up "testingVoltage Drop" on the web. Look for a gremlin that is present, munching on 4-6 volts. (as above per posplayer- clean those switches!)-but It might be anywhere. hiding near the Taillight wires or for instance.

I wouldn't expect adding relays to cure this..more like the process of connecting them in MIGHT, by refreshing the wiring and giving a funky-light-switch gremlin less to eat!
That said,
merely opinion but 75/100 watt headlamp sounds a bit much too me. Is that stock? on that bike? unless you are running at 4-5k rpm all the time on a highway-can your stator can keep up? including the coils, tailight and dash lights etc..stoplights,traffic?.. well, you could put a switch on it when your little VM goes below 12v....and I might want a relay( and new wire) myself running that much through 30 year old lightswitch ...but personally I would probably go for a new switch and good wiring instead.

by the way-random thought-Voltage displayed on the little VM does not have to exactly mimic better instruments. It's just an indicator of what the "good" bike is versus any change. so close counts.

[qcktvr]

Thank you,
when it did not want to start there was enough power to make the starter engage, but not enough to spin it over. With the headlamp unplugged and maybe 10mins to "recover" it did just have enough to fire it up, thankfully..
I will get brave and try to get inside those old switches, can only help to find where the V drops are, BUT I cannot see how they would have any effect on the output voltage from the Compufire dropping from 14.2 down to 13V and then going back to 14.2v
The big H4 was in from a PO, although I have used them in other bikes, even a 79 GS 750.
I once had a Honda CX650 turbo, they also ate stators, which meant removing the motor to replace; had a VM on it and when it started dropping pulling the HL fuse let me continue to ride 100+ miles home. I seem to recall that at that time it was considered good to have a higher load for the stator to supply, when it was working, to reduce the heat in it...
My mind went to the connector that I used for the stator wires as that was the only thing that I touched and those Hondas would melt theirs...
But my mechanical mind struggles with some of this electrical stuff, and being quite colour blind sure doesn't help, even with the wiring diagram!

[Steve]

The big H4 was in from a PO, although I have used them in other bikes, even a 79 GS 750.
I once had a Honda CX650 turbo, they also ate stators, which meant removing the motor to replace; had a VM on it and when it started dropping pulling the HL fuse let me continue to ride 100+ miles home. I seem to recall that at that time it was considered good to have a higher load for the stator to supply, when it was working, to reduce the heat in it...

That might be true when running a stock shunt-type R/R at constant high RPM, but you say you already have a Compufire, which is a series-type. Your high-RPM loads are handled quite nicely by the Compufire, but you have about a 35% load increase on low beam and a 65% increase on high beam. Unless you are spinning the engine fast enough to generate the extra current, you will be DIScharging the battery. That will happen in stop-and-go riding (in town) or some leisurely cruising on the open road.

Yes a voltmeter will help you monitor it, but it won't prevent it. I have brighter lights in all my vehicles that do not have stators, but even with a Compufire (on my wife's bike) or a Polaris R/R (my bike), I have not installed higher-wattage bulbs. In fact, I have installed LOWER wattage bulbs, but they were LEDs.

.

[posplayr]

Thank you,
when it did not want to start there was enough power to make the starter engage, but not enough to spin it over. With the headlamp unplugged and maybe 10mins to "recover" it did just have enough to fire it up, thankfully..
I will get brave and try to get inside those old switches, can only help to find where the V drops are, BUT I cannot see how they would have any effect on the output voltage from the Compufire dropping from 14.2 down to 13V and then going back to 14.2v
The big H4 was in from a PO, although I have used them in other bikes, even a 79 GS 750.
I once had a Honda CX650 turbo, they also ate stators, which meant removing the motor to replace; had a VM on it and when it started dropping pulling the HL fuse let me continue to ride 100+ miles home. I seem to recall that at that time it was considered good to have a higher load for the stator to supply, when it was working, to reduce the heat in it...
My mind went to the connector that I used for the stator wires as that was the only thing that I touched and those Hondas would melt theirs...
But my mechanical mind struggles with some of this electrical stuff, and being quite colour blind sure doesn't help, even with the wiring diagram!

Your quick tests suggest that the battery is OK and even with that 100/75W light it is staying above 12V.

But now you are have described something different. Hard to crank of won't fire? If it is hard to crank, that is less of a switch problem than you are probably overloading the battery with the headlamp and possibly requiring more cranking amps due to a slowly going out starter. If it wont firs that could be low voltage to the O/W due to dirty connections.

You can just spin your wheels when going over all the connections giving a good spray of DeOxit might be all it is depending upon what is really happening.

[qcktvr]

Thanks again,
more clarification, after riding for 60 miles and stopping, attempting to restart it acted as if the battery was partially discharged.
It did eventually fire up with the HL pulled; I reconnected it and rode 60 miles home.
When I then checked the volts, the battery, ign off, was only 12.5 and charging struggled to 13ish at 2500rpm; but it did repeatedly start okay like this before charging the battery.
This was not the first ride since going back together, when the charging was checked a few weeks ago, it was 14.2v with slightly higher idle speed, around 1200rpm... It had always checked like that through last summer as well..
I am still suspicious of that stator connector and will monitor with my new VM and ??
If the connector is the problem will it get hot? or could it just drop, say one of the 3 conductors?
Is there a "how to" for those switches somewhere?
Many thanks
Re

[Gorminrider]

after riding for 60 miles and stopping, attempting to restart it acted as if the battery was partially discharged.

GOOD Batteries "recover" somewhat when the abuse is stopped, like a boxer. But they retire early if every time they stand up, they get knocked down again.


If you "

drop, say one of the 3 conductors

" , your bike will still show somewhat of a charging voltage but only at higher rpm and it will be obviously low compared to all three legs functioning correctly. Again, that headlight of yours will make it even lower- two legs will never keep up to your headlamp.

your suspicions of your connectors can be solved by taking the covering off and looking at them but also:
Do the open voltage stator test(stator disconnected from bike-bike runs on it's battery alone) with the voltmeter set to 120vac or more-see and do http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...tem-QUICK-TEST ...If you want a visual load test to get that connection hot? connect a household lightbulb across two leads being aware that doing these tests with wet hands can teach you a lesson you won't ever forget.

yes somewhere there's tips on switch repair- an excellent idea is to put a Baggy around it to catch the tiny springs- poke a hole through for the screwdriver or other tinker-tools.

I'm aquainted with the cx and gls. You will recall they had a headlight cut-out when the starter button was pushed...so far, I have had no trouble with their stators- It is not the issue it is on these GS bikes, imo.

A broken connection doesn't get hot. Only a bad connection carrying a fair amount of current versus conductorsize (as in broken strands at connector) gets hot (It will also have a "voltage drop" across it, but "getting hot" is all you need to know)

[posplayr]

If you want a visual load test to get that connection hot? connect a household lightbulb across two leads being aware that doing these tests with wet hands can teach you a lesson you won't ever forget.

I was hoping someone would have bought one of the cheap HF clamp on volt meters to see if you can detect loaded current imbalance in the stator winding. I know Tom203 confirmed his SH-775 SERIES mode operation using one he had, just not sure if the model/quality exceeded the HF models to the point they would not work for this application.

http://www.harborfreight.com/clamp-on-digital-multimeter-95683.html

If you have a digital voltmeter and just ride around, carry the clamp on meter with you. If you notice the voltage is dropping, then your the clamp on to confirm imbalance and you can be pretty well assured that the stator is going.

Actually the frequency range is pretty broad up to 400Hz. 1K RPM is about 125 Hz so you can get to 3.6K RPM and still be in spec. Assume the accuracy falls off but you are looking for crude imbalance and should work fine up to 5K RPM.

Range: 200V/750V
Resolution: 100mV/1V
Accuracy: ± 1.2% rdg +5d @ 200V± 2% rdg +5d @ 750V
Frequency: 45-400 HzIndication:
Average (rms of sine wave)
Input Impedance: 9 MWOverload Protection: 750V rms AC

[qcktvr]

]Hello and thank you again,
I love your Harbor Freight stores and wish that we had them around here, Ontario Canada.
Our Amazon has some similar looking cheapies, like this:

http://www.amazon.ca/DT3266L-Counts-Current-Voltage-Digital/dp/B00HG8BDVE/ref=sr_1_11?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1437682057&sr=1-11&keywords=digital+volt+meter

Would that work the same?
My problem has not fixed itself, darn..
The ignition switch has had a clean, but I am still losing approx. 1v from the battery back to the fuse box / headlamp and those dangling bullets behind the headlamp..
My digi VM is reading battery voltage from the aux. screw in the fuse box thro' a relay; it is just .1v below my old VOM
I now have a standard H4 bulb, BUT the other had a 100W Hi, but the Lo was only 55W, not the 75W that I had said, and I was riding with Lo on, so it would not have caused the problem.
When I fired it up for a ride all was still good, with 14.1v @1500rpm and well over 13 at 1000rpm.
At any riding speed I was seeing 14.1v; stopped for gas, no problem.
10 miles, still 14.1 but did not check when idling..
15 miles, back home and notice that only showing low 12s; when I switched off and attempted to restart, at the first attempt the starter would again not spin it over, but at the 2nd go it did..
The 3 pin connector for the stator wires did not seem hot, but I am still tempted to cut it out and either solder those wires together or use larger single connectors?
I had to hold the rpm over 2000 for the voltage to slowly go up to 14.1
The stator was replaced last year with the Compufire, probably no more than 1000 miles since installing, so I am hoping that it should still be good?
This connector is neat and sealed, but has very small pins, which worries me some... also not easy to probe without having a couple f spare pins...
Thoughts

[posplayr]

]Hello and thank you again,
I love your Harbor Freight stores and wish that we had them around here, Ontario Canada.
Our Amazon has some similar looking cheapies, like this:

http://www.amazon.ca/DT3266L-Counts-Current-Voltage-Digital/dp/B00HG8BDVE/ref=sr_1_11?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1437682057&sr=1-11&keywords=digital+volt+meter

Would that work the same?
My problem has not fixed itself, darn..
The ignition switch has had a clean, but I am still losing approx. 1v from the battery back to the fuse box / headlamp and those dangling bullets behind the headlamp..
My digi VM is reading battery voltage from the aux. screw in the fuse box thro' a relay; it is just .1v below my old VOM
I now have a standard H4 bulb, BUT the other had a 100W Hi, but the Lo was only 55W, not the 75W that I had said, and I was riding with Lo on, so it would not have caused the problem.
When I fired it up for a ride all was still good, with 14.1v @1500rpm and well over 13 at 1000rpm.
At any riding speed I was seeing 14.1v; stopped for gas, no problem.
10 miles, still 14.1 but did not check when idling..
15 miles, back home and notice that only showing low 12s; when I switched off and attempted to restart, at the first attempt the starter would again not spin it over, but at the 2nd go it did..
The 3 pin connector for the stator wires did not seem hot, but I am still tempted to cut it out and either solder those wires together or use larger single connectors?
I had to hold the rpm over 2000 for the voltage to slowly go up to 14.1
The stator was replaced last year with the Compufire, probably no more than 1000 miles since installing, so I am hoping that it should still be good?
This connector is neat and sealed, but has very small pins, which worries me some... also not easy to probe without having a couple f spare pins...
Thoughts

The meter will probably work when you get to testing the stator. However, right now it seems you battery is low. The Quick Test has two first steps to test the battery. (1.) resting battery voltage, and 2.) loaded with key on) You are leaving us to guess.

You seem to be charging but also have low battery.

Since you say the stator and Compufire were changed together, I would assume no problem there for the moment, certainly nothing you have reported suggested that the DC Volts is not rising with RPM to charging levels. 14.1V is a little low but not something of concern at the moment.

How old is the battery? Do the battery tests and if low, charge it on a charger and start over remembering to test the voltage with key on every time you start the bike to see if it is dropping.

[barnbiketom]

Put a stock headlite bulb in , ride it and see what happens.

[qcktvr]

Good morning,
Thank you Pos / Jim for your interest and help with my issue..
Battery was fully charged, about 2 days prior to yesterdays test run.
Volts were 12.5 at rest (new cheap VM on bike)
and dropping towards 12 as I pushed the S button
while cranking it briefly showed 10.? but spun fast and fired up just fine
with the fast choke idle it went v quickly to that 14.1v max reading and only dropped down to 13.? at my 1000rpm warm idle speed.
4 miles to the gas station, a mix of up to 7k and 2k in town the VM stayed at 14.1.
It started without hesitation then.
At some point before getting home, another 10 miles of riding, something changed..
It was no longer charging at my 1000rpm idle, showing only 12.2v
When shut off and restarted I could tell that the battery was now somewhat down, but at the 2nd attempt it did go..
Voltage increased, but only slowly, when engine speed was held at 2000+
Something is changing, just have to determine what, the bike can sit for many days and the battery keeps it charge just fine, it was indoors and kept charged over winter.
It was on bike when purchased, so 3+ years, did just have to add distilled water, (surprised after so little running)so maybe its time has come??
Will order that meter, recharge batt, pack cell phone and try again...
Regards