New stator failing?? with a Compufire

[Guest]

Hi Everyone,
Still trying to resolve my charging concerns with my 1150.
I am a mechanical type and struggle with this stuff...
Last year fitted a new Ricks stator and a Compufire RR, maybe only 1000 miles since.
All good last year, but sensed low voltage when cranking after a 60 mile run recently.
QUICK TEST results were good on start up, but not as good after a 15 mile run.
Just sprung for a new AGM battery, no real change though..
Removed a 3 pin Wurth plug that I had used to connect stator wires to RR and ran the stator tests before soldering those 3 wires together.
No continuity between wires and ground
.6 ohms between any pairs of wires
75 volts between all pairs just below 5000rpm
BUT
There is also voltage between ALL 3 wires and ground, around 10v at idle, rising to around 40v at 5000rpm. The test calls for 0v here.
So what has gone wrong, doubt that the beast has even been to redline since and no long trips either??
I did follow up on the suggestion to buy a clamp on meter, no HF here but did find a couple on Amazon, this one has arrived: ($7.25Cdn + post!). The specs say 50 - 400hz

http://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0064AMNT6/ref=pe_386430_30332290_TE_3p_dp_1

Could not get it to read volts from stator but did get readings of amps; difficult to maintain constant engine speed, keep clamp(weak) on wire and read value, but they were clearly not all the same, varying from below 2A to close to 4A?
Cannot verify now without soldering the 3 wires, which seems a waste if the stator needs to come out, again, and yet it is still charging..
I am very confused by this, and do not understand what has actually failed, hoping that someone, Jim? will tell me.
Regards

[posplayr]

[QUOTE=qcktvr;2213280]Hi Everyone,
Still trying to resolve my charging concerns with my 1150.
I am a mechanical type and struggle with this stuff...
Last year fitted a new Ricks stator and a Compufire RR, maybe only 1000 miles since.
All good last year, but sensed low voltage when cranking after a 60 mile run recently.
QUICK TEST results were good on start up, but not as good after a 15 mile run.
Just sprung for a new AGM battery, no real change though..
Removed a 3 pin Wurth plug that I had used to connect stator wires to RR and ran the stator tests before soldering those 3 wires together.

No continuity between wires and ground
.6 ohms between any pairs of wires

This a meaningless test because the voltage of an ohm meter is so low.

75 volts between all pairs just below 5000rpm

This is a reasonably good reading but it is also inconclusive as only failed stator tests are conclusive.

BUT
There is also voltage between ALL 3 wires and ground, around 10v at idle, rising to around 40v at 5000rpm. The test calls for 0v here.

This is a very bad indication and the reason I suggested the clamp on amp meter before. The last guy that had this measurement had shorted one of his stator windings in a hasty install.

So what has gone wrong, doubt that the beast has even been to redline since and no long trips either??
I did follow up on the suggestion to buy a clamp on meter, no HF here but did find a couple on Amazon, this one has arrived: ($7.25Cdn + post!). The specs say 50 - 400hz

http://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0064AMNT6/ref=pe_386430_30332290_TE_3p_dp_1

Could not get it to read volts from stator but did get readings of amps; difficult to maintain constant engine speed, keep clamp(weak) on wire and read value, but they were clearly not all the same, varying from below 2A to close to 4A?

I dont know what RPM you are reporting at, current will vary as a function of RPM. Test all three phases at the same RPM say 3000RPM.

Cannot verify now without soldering the 3 wires, which seems a waste if the stator needs to come out, again, and yet it is still charging..
I am very confused by this, and do not understand what has actually failed, hoping that someone, Jim? will tell me.
Regards

It is clear, you have a bad stator indicated by the voltage in the leg to ground tests. That is conclusive that the stator is failing. But to confirm it if you measure the AC current on each leg at the same RPM (e.g. 3000 RPM) and they are different then I would say again the stator is at fault. You did not say you measured all at teh same RPM?

You need to pull the stator and inspect it. My guess if it is grounded out. The last person with this problem had shorted one of the statro legs on a brand new stator by careless installation.

I would ask for your quick test results but I'm guessing it is not good based on the stator readings. Just post them, it really is teh basic guide to what is happening.

[qcktvr]

Thanks Jim,
It was not a rushed install, but I am already looking for another stator..
That voltage to ground was the same on all legs.
The amps were noted in my head at constant rpm, they were NOT the same, with about a 100% spread.
Quick test results were good, although my $6 digi on board meter is not the best, reading lower now.
The new AGM battery was 12.7v with my hand held VOM
It did not drop as much as the old battery with ignition on 10secs, maybe 12.3v
13.5v at 1500rpm
14,25v at 2500rpm
14.2v at 4000rpm
12.7v at 1000rpm
battery 13v with ign off
This was from a cold start, last ridden it was not so good after 15miles, but still charging.
Not sure that I will reconnect those wires with this stator though,
last year I recall that it was 14.2 with a 1200rpm idle,
Thanks again

[posplayr]

The Quick tests looks pretty good, maybe a little low at 14.2-14.25 peak voltage but very respectable and it might just be the setpoint. It may very well be that you are under producing but not so much that teh battery can't be kept fully charged. You should install one of those cheap handlebar mount volt meters and just monitor it for anything where you can't keep over 14.0 V above 2500 RPM. I'm still not ruling out some damage, but it apparently is not keeping teh stator from producing a sufficient amount. Having said that are you running into cranking issues or other low battery indications?

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?163566-Volt-meter-recommendations&p=2200636#post2200636

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Motorcycle-LED-Digital-Display-Voltmeter-Waterproof-Meter-12V-24V-/201317188841?hash=item2edf7084e9

[qcktvr]

Good morning,
The concern started when 60 miles from home and the bike acted as if battery was down, did not want to crank, but did eventually manage to start it.
Charging had been good before setting out at 14.2v, but was only 13ish back home.
Added a small digi VM to bike, relayed from fuse block aux screw, it initially read .1v lower than my VOM at battery. It then read 14.2v running for the first few miles, so guess I stopped looking at it; back home after about a 15mile ride it again acted as if battery was low, only reading below 13v at idle, but would slowly go up to 14v if revs kept up.
From a cold start the quick test numbers seem to be good, but something must be changing while it is running.
Just rechecked those volts to ground, still the same, 8v at idle, 50% of value between legs?
Meter read approx. 2v ac with only red lead to a stator wire, ie no ground??
I also tried light bulbs between stator wires and ground, but again, not a flicker, even though my vom measures up to 40v there?
Will start taking apart soon as I like things to be as good as possible, and of course reliable.
Also tried a 25W 12v lamp between batt +ve and stator wires for ground, but not even a glimmer..
Will let you know how it looks
Regards

[posplayr]

It is normal for a slow idle for the charging voltage to drop to 12.8v. As long as it climbs as described in quick test it is ok.

[qcktvr]

So what would you do Jim?
The bike is sitting there, leaned over to RHS, lower fairing off, stator / RR leads stripped ready to solder / shrink wrap, tools ready to remove stator....
I do not have another stator, yet...
Time is not a problem, retired; money not a major one either, but limited.
You indicate that those volts to ground are serious, so guess it has to come out...
Could it possibly be a repairable short, like a pinched lead wire?
Thanks

[posplayr]

So what would you do Jim?
The bike is sitting there, leaned over to RHS, lower fairing off, stator / RR leads stripped ready to solder / shrink wrap, tools ready to remove stator....
I do not have another stator, yet...
Time is not a problem, retired; money not a major one either, but limited.
You indicate that those volts to ground are serious, so guess it has to come out...
Could it possibly be a repairable short, like a pinched lead wire?
Thanks

The last guy with these symptoms has exactly that same problem; Pinched wires.You either ride it like it is and watch your voltage or pull the stator and inspect. I doubt it is burned up but it could be a first. It will only cost you a stator gasket.

[qcktvr]

New stator is ordered, leads have been soldered so that I can still ride, monitor volts and maybe not go too far..
I did clip my super cheapo meter on to those leads again; the readings still vary widely:
Only measured at idle, 0.5/0.6 0.8/0.9 and 1.9/2.0, on the 20amp setting.
It did no read ac volts with the clamp.
On another subject, decided to go for a spin this morning, gorgeous day here, but the bike was not running close to right, so turned back home.. #2 header pipe not hot.. Petcock is new, had that problem, this was much more severe.
Pulled plug wire and checked spark with a used plug, looked fine..
Did not want to get in to the carb..
Tried plugging the vac line to petcock, that was not the problem..
Luckily thought to pull the #2 plug and found it wet, NO spark; now running on 4 cylinders again, hope the sun shines again tomorrow for that ride.
This was an NGK plug, fine one day and dead the next, think this is yet another first for me..

[posplayr]

I did clip my super cheapo meter on to those leads again; the readings still vary widely:
Only measured at idle, 0.5/0.6 0.8/0.9 and 1.9/2.0, on the 20amp setting.
It did no read ac volts with the clamp.

What does X/Y mean?
The AC Volts have to be measured using test leads. The clamp is only for AC Amps
You should be seeing something like 5 amps on any one lead at idle, so it doesn't sound like that meter is doing any good..

[qcktvr]

Hi again,
the display was not steady, each lead was X/Y as a range, so about 0.6A 0.9A and 2.0A on the 3 leads.
Very cheap, but seems to repeat, but sure would not put money on it...
5 Amps on each of three wires at idle seems very optimistic doesn't it? I was measuring 16v between those wires at idle.. but then after the basic Ohm's law I get pretty lost....
Because my Ricks Electric stator is quite new I did ask them about my voltage readings between each lead and ground, about 50% of the between leads value:

“Q. Does this confirm that there is a short between the stator coils and ground?”

No it does not. In order to check for a ground fault, check resistance between the leads and ground at room temp. Anything other than Open Line is a ground fault. Do not use a voltmeter to do a ground check. Depending on how sensitive the multimeter is you may or may not get a reading (similar to a line-neutral connection in a three-phase power supply with a neutral wire.) There is a fairly lengthy technical explanation that goes with this but the bottom line is the resistance test is conclusive. The AC voltage test is not. Voltage is simply a difference between two points, and if your meter is sensitive enough to pick up the ground, you’ll get a number.

That new stator, an Electrosport this time, was ordered after this response from Ricks, this is just for our/your info, we obviously have LOTS of experience with these things and I am 99% sure that something is amiss with my charging system.
The new AGM is now in, that skimpy connector is now gone, leads soldered directly to the Compufire's leads and its +ve & -ve go directly to battery. The original Red harness wire goes to the Aux in the fuse block so that its fused and the old RR -ve BW? goes to a good ground along with an extra ground lead from the RR housing. Onboard VM only reading .25v below the battery / RR, seems to be lost in that relay?
Time for bed now, hope to take a test ride tomorrow

[posplayr]

Hi again,
the display was not steady, each lead was X/Y as a range, so about 0.6A 0.9A and 2.0A on the 3 leads.
Very cheap, but seems to repeat, but sure would not put money on it...
5 Amps on each of three wires at idle seems very optimistic doesn't it? I was measuring 16v between those wires at idle.. but then after the basic Ohm's law I get pretty lost....
Because my Ricks Electric stator is quite new I did ask them about my voltage readings between each lead and ground, about 50% of the between leads value:

“Q. Does this confirm that there is a short between the stator coils and ground?”

No it does not. In order to check for a ground fault, check resistance between the leads and ground at room temp. Anything other than Open Line is a ground fault. Do not use a voltmeter to do a ground check. Depending on how sensitive the multimeter is you may or may not get a reading (similar to a line-neutral connection in a three-phase power supply with a neutral wire.) There is a fairly lengthy technical explanation that goes with this but the bottom line is the resistance test is conclusive. The AC voltage test is not. Voltage is simply a difference between two points, and if your meter is sensitive enough to pick up the ground, you’ll get a number.

That new stator, an Electrosport this time, was ordered after this response from Ricks, this is just for our/your info, we obviously have LOTS of experience with these things and I am 99% sure that something is amiss with my charging system.
The new AGM is now in, that skimpy connector is now gone, leads soldered directly to the Compufire's leads and its +ve & -ve go directly to battery. The original Red harness wire goes to the Aux in the fuse block so that its fused and the old RR -ve BW? goes to a good ground along with an extra ground lead from the RR housing. Onboard VM only reading .25v below the battery / RR, seems to be lost in that relay?
Time for bed now, hope to take a test ride tomorrow

That was not necessary, but if your voltage drops are low I guess it is OK.

Rick's assertion that the ohm meter tests are conclusive is exactly wrong. If 30 volts can break down a stator insulation but 3 volts from an ohm meter can NOT, then Ricks claim that the 3V ohmmeter test is conclusive that the stator is good? Yea right. "Don't worry trust us the math is too complicated for us to explain to you"

Unless the manufacturer has purposefully grounded the stator to the chassis, it should be isolated and NO AC voltage should show up on any leg and ground. I guess they would also say you can not use a megger?

[tom203]

That was a pitiful response from Rick's regarding the virtue of the ohm meter's ability to detect a shorted winding.The running AC test to ground is much more conclusive.

[posplayr]

Hi again,
the display was not steady, each lead was X/Y as a range, so about 0.6A 0.9A and 2.0A on the 3 leads.
Very cheap, but seems to repeat, but sure would not put money on it...

While there is no absolute accuracy guarantee with that AC clamp meter (amp), I suspect that it is indicating a major imbalance in current production . It is possible that it is due to the Compufire screwing on on two of the three legs, but a simple test to swap legs to different R/R inputs you could determine that. If the 0.6A 0.9A and 2.0A current readings follows the stator wires then it is the stator, if it follows the R/R leads then it is an R/R problem. I know you have it soldered in, but since you plan to cut it out anyway it would be worth a test to develop confidence in using the uncalibrated AC current clamp.

[qcktvr]

Hello, rode about 20 miles today, everything seemed good, the onboard VM stayed at 14v (= 14.25 @ battery) down to 1500 rpm.
Back home the battery was 13v, ignition off.
Stopped / started the motor a few times, no hesitation, did not take long charging to get back to 14+v.
Maybe it is happier with the new battery or without that neat, but small 3 pin connector on the stator leads??
I haven't "shrunk" the tubing on my soldered joints yet, will wait until more sure about the charging, but so far its looking good.
Now the leads are soldered they will likely stay that way until / if the stator ends up coming out again; I had wondered what the RR might do to those currents, even with a fully charged battery it would have to supply the current for the lights, 5A and the ignition, ?A, would that leave much spare charging capacity at idle?
Anyway good to be running on 4 cylinders and seeing that blue 14.0v glowing in front of me; when it behaves itself I sure love this bike.
Thanks again to all