bike wont charge...again

[posplayr]

Well if you replaced both R/R and stator and followed the directions then perhaps you shorted out the stator on installation. Do teh Revised Phase B tests as mentioned. A stator problem will likely show up.

1.5 amps is a trickle charger and not a charger. A GS charging system puts out about 3-4 amps and that only works if the battery is not too discharged.

[turbojonn]

Will do. I'll have to wait until morning though. I did test the fuse block. Weird thing, each of the 5 fuse holders show lower voltage than the one above...meaning the top fuse holder shows 12.2, the second one down shows 11.5, the third one down shows 10.2, etc. This can't be normal? Also, the 15 amp fuse was hot when I pulled it. Maybe I should up it to a 20 amp as it has to run a fuel pump as well?

[posplayr]

Will do. I'll have to wait until morning though. I did test the fuse block. Weird thing, each of the 5 fuse holders show lower voltage than the one above...meaning the top fuse holder shows 12.2, the second one down shows 11.5, the third one down shows 10.2, etc. This can't be normal? Also, the 15 amp fuse was hot when I pulled it. Maybe I should up it to a 20 amp as it has to run a fuel pump as well?

It is hot because it is dirty, those old glass fuse boxes will melt if you do not clean it. You problem might just be maintenance if you can get close enough to do a reasonable test.


This is what the fuse box looks like. Pop of the back, dip it in naval jelly and let it set 15 minutes then wash it out. Soldering teh crimps is best. get a little flux, electronics solder and some DeOxit.

[trippivot]

let's take this in steps. step 1 AC induction and total potential.

VERY WEAK ..FIRST THING you need to know is if you are creating electrical power and how much !!! The stator creates AC FIRST and it gets converted to DC by the rectifier. ok?

unplug the 3 AC wires going to the R&R -- put your meter scale to AC == 100 volts about max. if you have a swing needle (analog) and need to know what scale to use... and take measurements of AC voltage generating from the stator - 1-2, 1-3 , 2-3 at idle and mid range rev like you did before only we are testing AC potential - all your charging power starts from the stator.

if at idle speed RPM the AC voltage is below 26 AC volts on any of the 3 combinations of stator wires - you NEED A NEW STATOR . period.

however if you are getting a minimum (idle) in the 30 range and a maximum of 80~100 or more your stator is GOOD. move on --


I had an issue that plagued me with nearly exact readings/symptoms like you posted. bike in question made plenty of AC - good R&R but weak DC at the battery.

- my problem ended up being that the owner had both hi beam and low beam of the headlight wired to operate at the same time.

post the AC readings and we can move on.

[posplayr]

unplug the 3 AC wires going to the R&R -- put your meter scale to AC == 100 volts about max. if you have a swing needle (analog) and need to know what scale to use... and take measurements of AC voltage generating from the stator - 1-2, 1-3 , 2-3 at idle and mid range rev like you did before only we are testing AC potential - all your charging power starts from the stator.

if at idle speed RPM the AC voltage is below 26 AC volts on any of the 3 combinations of stator wires - you NEED A NEW STATOR . period.

While nothing is perfect, Frank's has updated the Phase B tests to add some important elements. As as currently written there are:
1.) ohm meter tests for leg to leg continuity. These are essentially worthless due to the inconclusiveness but there are there primarily for historical reasons.
2.) There are leg to leg tests which specify 5000 RPM (unlike your suggestion). It is better to go to a full 5000 RPM because the voltage is higher and stator break down is more likely if there is compromised stator.
3.) Finally what you have omitted is probably what has proven to be the most useful test for stator diagnosis is leg to ground tests also at 5000 RPM.

http://www.thegsresources.com/statorpapers4.php

There are still ambiguities in stator testing that are not obvious from a first read of the Stator Pages. I have detailed many of the issues of stator testing here:

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3977567/dummy-load-scanned-pdf-may-14-2012-8-24-pm-649k?da=y

however if you are getting a minimum (idle) in the 30 range and a maximum of 80~100 or more your stator is GOOD. move on --

I would hope I have made it clear that this statement is false. You can not prove a stator good you can only prove a stator false unless you operate the stator under full load and ,measure the results.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?223164-FIRST-and-SECOND-LAW-of-Stator-testing&highlight=law+stator+testing

[turbojonn]

OK, now i have 12v across all the fuse blocks...but...the bike wont power up. I put it back just like the pic. Maybe the short is close in proximity to the fuses. I'll keep looking.

[posplayr]

OK, now i have 12v across all the fuse blocks...but...the bike wont power up. I put it back just like the pic. Maybe the short is close in proximity to the fuses. I'll keep looking.

You are wandering..................................

Go back and make sure you are doing what was recommended.

The bike is lot a laptop, what does "wont (sic) power up" mean?

[turbojonn]

There is no power at the key or to the ignition. No way to continue testing. Its the same 15 amp circuit that kept blowing the fuse. There is 12 v to the fuse box. I must have put something back incorrectly. I'll post a pic.

[turbojonn]

Here's the pic.

[turbojonn]

Wiring is my nemisis. Sorry if Im not clear. I just dont know much about this. Once I get it to run again the first thing I will do is the stator test. I appreciate the help and don't want to wear out my welcome.

[trippivot]

these systems are not designed to charge the battery - only cover the total draw .

DC tests only tell a small part of the story - they confirm there is not enough electricity to cover the loads but is from not making enough or using too much ? - which is why I also do Amperage tests in conjunction with voltage.

static tests are OK but fully heated dynamic tests will show you everything. operating heat can contribute to insulation breakdown failure but after the varnish melting is done the winding is usually married to ground - I would save a magic stator that works cold and fails hot for teaching purposes if I ever find one.

lack of magnetism from the rotor will cause low AC induction (I do have one of those) tricky tricky --

YOU FIRST NEED to know if you are making enough power and I am stating a bare minimum of 28ACV@stator = 14.0DCV@battery // 26ACV@stator =13.0DCV@battery - with zero loads drawing off of the system no matter the 12V battery size. no ignition - no lights no nothing - and 24 will rectify to just make 12. - in theory. now add ignition and lights and signals - lacking EMF to go for a ride.

theory and reality do not live in the same neighborhood.

toss that stator out the window if it is under 30ACV on any of the 3 phase legs at idle.

Turbojohn - you have more than 1 problem get a test light and track your DC positive connectivity and switched control of positive battery power. from battery positive - to ignition switch and back to the fuse block. and from fuse block to rest of system - the base plate of the ignition switch is a common problem too ..

most important colors to test on.... red - orange - orange white tracer - orange red tracer - orange green tracer.

are you using a 15 amp main fuse? your inner mental light bulb will eventually switch on -- keep at it

[posplayr]

YOU FIRST NEED to know if you are making enough power and I am stating a bare minimum of 28ACV@stator = 14.0DCV@battery // 26ACV@stator =13.0DCV@battery - with zero loads drawing off of the system no matter the 12V battery size. no ignition - no lights no nothing - and 24 will rectify to just make 12. - in theory. now add ignition and lights and signals - lacking EMF to go for a ride.

theory and reality do not live in the same neighborhood.

You might clarify if you are talking about Open loop AC tests v.s. Closed Loop AC tests being related to DC output.

Also while that "rule" is simple it has little basis in theory and is not really very accurate either. You "rule" suggests that it takes in the ideal case 1600 RPM to avoid discharging your battery. This is way too much as a typical charging system only needs about 1200 RPM to not discharge the battery. If your rule is teh best case, that suggests that it is takes as much as 2000 RPM to not discharge the battery. That way overstates the case and the reason is the rule more accidental than based on any theory.

According to the rule:

VAC necessary to not discharge at idle when VDC= 12.8 VDC required a stator VAC of: VDC* 2 = 12.8*2=25.6 VAC.

By spec the factory charging systems spec the VAC open circuit is 80 VAC/5K RPM of 16VAC/KRPM implying that
it takes 1600 RPM to achieve 25.6VAC : RPM=16VAC/KRPM*25.6/16=1600 RPM.

The reality is that charging systems operate at 12.8VDC at about 1200 RPM not 2000 RPM. The factor of two in the "simple rule" does not exist in any theory but there are differences between open loop and closed loop tests and conversion losses v.s. an ideal conversion that account of the differences, however it is not a constant and it is not 50% (as implied by the factor of two).

[turbojonn]

Small update; bad fuse caused the dead circuit. Note to self- do not buy cheap fuses again. One of the end caps on the fuse fell off when pulled it out of the panel. I'll test the rest on Sat. Thanks again for all the help.

[posplayr]

Happy Thanksgiving to all; I'm going back to work

[turbojonn]

I just tested the stator. It put out 7 volts on two of the legs and 11 and a half on the 3rd. I pulled the stator and put in a Ricks stator. It shows 0 volts across any of the three legs. I don't think I have the IQ for this to figure out the troubleshooting guide. Unless somebody knows something obvious I'm doing wrong I'm taking it to the shop. It suck to be a bit dim.