Relay burning out and fuse blowing

[posplayr]

A few comments:

First congratulations for taking this big step to redraw a schematic. I suspect it was helpful to analyze your various modifications and get them clear in your mind. This is what real EE's actually do .

As drawn, you have many if not too many connections between the R/R and the battery. I count 15+ contacts or crimps. You can certanly reduce that.
Use the Revised Phase A tests to measure the voltage drops.

You should read up more on the SPG. If your R/R is close to the new fuse box then you can make the bus bar yoru SPG but follow teh SPG recommendations which you have failed to reflect in your comment so far.

You seem to have missed GS Charging health as well and you did not eliminate the headlamp switch loop, but did eliminate one stator leg.

On teh surface I don't see anything wrong with where you put that relay (assuming you get rid of some of the contacts listed above), so it seems you probably have too much voltage somewhere. Have you measured the voltage across the relay coil when running? Measured the current through it? You know it should be about 150 mA and not more.

I asked you before if you might have been using a stator leg to power the relay; since that leg is missing what did you do with it?

The image is also hard to read and I'm guessing you used 300 DPI which in my experience will not pick up the fine print. Use 600 DPI if available.

[glenwill]

Thanks posplayr. I apologize, I did eliminate the headlight switch loop, but did not update my diagram to reflect that. I saw that this morning and meant to edit it, but forgot when I got finished. I do have all three stator wires wired to the R/R. I've updated the diagram to reflect that, with 3 yellow wires from the stator to the R/R.


I did eliminate many of the connectors from the main power wiring, but I did not think to eliminate them from the diagram. I've cleaned those up as well. I'll inspect the wiring to see if there are any others.

I'll read more on SPG, but I do see where what I stated is not right. I think I would need to run the battery to the ground bar, the engine case to the ground bar, and every other ground to the ground bar. then I'd have a SPG, correct?

I don't have the relay connected currently, although I plan to wire it back up for further testing. I have currently reconnected the orange line directly through, which reintroduces some voltage drop through the keyswitch. That results in lower voltage at the lighting wire where I have my R/R sensor, resulting in a 15.5 volt charging level. If I move the R/R sensor to the fuse panel, I'll lower the charging voltage.

I see that the file posted is much lower resolution than the file on my laptop, so the site must be lowering the resolution. If there is a way to increase the upload resolution, I don't see it. I included a link to the full file below.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7YtnGqYolOQQkdYNmdhREl0c1k

Glen's 1980 Suzuki GS550L Wiring Diagram.jpg

[posplayr]

Thanks posplayr. I apologize, I did eliminate the headlight switch loop, but did not update my diagram to reflect that. I saw that this morning and meant to edit it, but forgot when I got finished. I do have all three stator wires wired to the R/R. I've updated the diagram to reflect that, with 3 yellow wires from the stator to the R/R.


I did eliminate many of the connectors from the main power wiring, but I did not think to eliminate them from the diagram. I've cleaned those up as well. I'll inspect the wiring to see if there are any others.

I'll read more on SPG, but I do see where what I stated is not right. I think I would need to run the battery to the ground bar, the engine case to the ground bar, and every other ground to the ground bar. then I'd have a SPG, correct?

I don't have the relay connected currently, although I plan to wire it back up for further testing. I have currently reconnected the orange line directly through, which reintroduces some voltage drop through the keyswitch. That results in lower voltage at the lighting wire where I have my R/R sensor, resulting in a 15.5 volt charging level. If I move the R/R sensor to the fuse panel, I'll lower the charging voltage.

I see that the file posted is much lower resolution than the file on my laptop, so the site must be lowering the resolution. If there is a way to increase the upload resolution, I don't see it. I included a link to the full file below.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7YtnGqYolOQQkdYNmdhREl0c1k

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44704[/ATTACH]

Make the ground bar the SPG and follow the directions for SPG connections.


You know that is 1.0V too high

Perhaps you do not realize that the R/R output will adjust so that the voltage at the sense point is 14.5V(nominal). So if the sense point is below the battery the battery/charging voltage will rise to achieve the regulation level.

[glenwill]

Thanks Posplayr. I do understand how the sense works and that my current voltage is high. The reason it is high right now is two-fold:

1) I haven't reinstalled the ignition key switch bypass relay. I originally installed that after running the modified charging tests, and finding that even after removing connectors from the path, I couldn't get rid of the voltage loss through the key switch. This week when I temporarily hooked up the relay, my charging voltage dropped to 14.7 or so. That is still slightly high probably, but is likely caused by...

2) My sense wire is on the rear brake pedal switch, which is affected by some of the connectors still in play for the lighting wiring, which I have not eliminated. My thought is to move the sense wire to the fuse panel (I have spare switched fuse slots) so it is picking up full voltage. Is this indeed better?

Since I don't have a solid explanation for the relays frying, I'm going to move the sense wire, clean up the grounds to follow SPG, and rewire the relay back in place. I'll make a jumper wire in case the relay fails on a test ride, and carry a bunch of fuses in case the problem is not resolved by the rewiring.

Glen

[Datsa Noydb]

I see two possible solutions here, one should be considered "temporary" until you can implement the other:

1. Move your sense wire to the switched terminal in your Eastern Beaver fuse box. That will eliminate any voltage drops caused by dodgy connections because it is VERY close to the battery.

2. Get a SH775 R/R from a Polaris and eliminate the sense wire altogether. This has the added benefit of prolonging stator life on your smaller, higher-revving engine.

[bwringer]

I see this mentioned above in passing, but the other thing that can "fry" a relay is rapid cycling. There are many ways this can happen -- as noted above, vibration, a bad connection somewhere, a bad ground, accidentally using AC from a stator wire to trigger the relay, etc.

I'd suspect there's an error somewhere between the diagram and the reality...

[glenwill]

I see two possible solutions here, one should be considered "temporary" until you can implement the other:

1. Move your sense wire to the switched terminal in your Eastern Beaver fuse box. That will eliminate any voltage drops caused by dodgy connections because it is VERY close to the battery.

2. Get a SH775 R/R from a Polaris and eliminate the sense wire altogether. This has the added benefit of prolonging stator life on your smaller, higher-revving engine.

Thanks. I was actually just reading up on posplayr's SSPB, and he is also recommending the SH775. I'm thinking maybe I just rewire with both of those, and eliminate the risk of a failing relay or fuse.

[posplayr]

I see this mentioned above in passing, but the other thing that can "fry" a relay is rapid cycling. There are many ways this can happen -- as noted above, vibration, a bad connection somewhere, a bad ground, accidentally using AC from a stator wire to trigger the relay, etc.

I'd suspect there's an error somewhere between the diagram and the reality...

You are correct, this had not occurred to me that it may very well be that a low control voltage is cycling the relay. It is common practice to use a snubber or flyback diode on the relay to protect the coil when it is opened.

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/56322/do-i-need-a-flyback-diode-with-an-automotive-relay/56323#56323

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6I7Ycbv8B8

While the flyback diode will probably protect the relay, I suspect other issues because many people install relays without fly back diodes (as far as I can tell). But repeated cycling will probably hasten the relays life.

You get get a fat 5 amp diode from radio shack and put that across the coil of the relay as indicated. It provides a short to the negative going pulse of current that occurs when the coil is opened. This saves that current from going through the coil but instead chooses the diode parallel path.

[glenwill]

You are correct, this had not occurred to me that it may very well be that a low control voltage is cycling the relay. It is common practice to use a snubber or flyback diode on the relay to protect the coil when it is opened.

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/56322/do-i-need-a-flyback-diode-with-an-automotive-relay/56323#56323

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6I7Ycbv8B8

While the flyback diode will probably protect the relay, I suspect other issues because many people install relays without fly back diodes (as far as I can tell). But repeated cycling will probably hasten the relays life.

You get get a fat 5 amp diode from radio shack and put that across the coil of the relay as indicated. It provides a short to the negative going pulse of current that occurs when the coil is opened. This saves that current from going through the coil but instead chooses the diode parallel path.

Recalling my original post, I had 2 problems where I was not sure which was causing which, and still don't. My son reported steadily dropping voltage before the bike shutdown, and when we went to diagnose we found the relay and fuse were blown.

So I am not sure if the relay going was causing a drop in voltage by steadily shorting out, or if the steadily dropping voltage reached a point where it caused the relay to fail and short out the fuse. If it's the latter, it would mean that the relay failed from 1-2 minutes of low voltage at most.

I have not been able to reproduce the steadily dropping voltage running in the garage, so it's time to get out on the road with some spares in case it shuts down again.

Glen

[posplayr]

Recalling my original post, I had 2 problems where I was not sure which was causing which, and still don't. My son reported steadily dropping voltage before the bike shutdown, and when we went to diagnose we found the relay and fuse were blown.

So I am not sure if the relay going was causing a drop in voltage by steadily shorting out, or if the steadily dropping voltage reached a point where it caused the relay to fail and short out the fuse. If it's the latter, it would mean that the relay failed from 1-2 minutes of low voltage at most.

I have not been able to reproduce the steadily dropping voltage running in the garage, so it's time to get out on the road with some spares in case it shuts down again.

Glen

The only cause and effect I'm concerned with is what could burn out a coil in a relay. Solving that will get you into a more stable situation to find out what the root cause if of your charging problems. Most likely if you just followed the GS Charging health thread it would go away, but obviously there is the possibility of something pathological not covered by that guide.


Words of advice when trying to solve a complex interrelated problem.

Fix what you know is wrong First without trying to rationalize away what it's effects might be. The cause of the symptoms is not always that obvious or may manifest itself in ways you did not expect.

You know the relay should not be burning up, but it obviously is. The diode will probably stop the relay from burning up. You will probably them find out that the relay is cycling for some reason, but that would be prejudging the outcome.

By fixing what you know is wrong, you may or may not solve the problem, but it is not something that also needs to be removed later.

[glenwill]

Starting with fixing what is wrong first, I cleaned up my grounds, and switched to a single-point ground, using the frame underneath the seat. RR, Battery, Black/White and Engine ground all meet there.

I also replaced the R/R with an SH775. I still have the relay disconnected, and I'll ride it like this for a bit and see if I have any further trouble. Until I put the relay back in, or put in a SSPB, I have a voltage drop.

One question. After putting in the SH775, my charging voltage at the battery is >14 volts all the time. At idle it's around 14.2. At 5000, it's around 14.3. At idle, turn on high beams, it drops to <14 briefly, and then rises back to just under 14.2. If I turn the headlights off, it increases to around 14.25, and then drops back to around 14.2.

Is this normal for a series R/R?

Glen

[posplayr]

Starting with fixing what is wrong first, I cleaned up my grounds, and switched to a single-point ground, using the frame underneath the seat. RR, Battery, Black/White and Engine ground all meet there.

I also replaced the R/R with an SH775. I still have the relay disconnected, and I'll ride it like this for a bit and see if I have any further trouble. Until I put the relay back in, or put in a SSPB, I have a voltage drop.

One question. After putting in the SH775, my charging voltage at the battery is >14 volts all the time. At idle it's around 14.2. At 5000, it's around 14.3. At idle, turn on high beams, it drops to <14 briefly, and then rises back to just under 14.2. If I turn the headlights off, it increases to around 14.25, and then drops back to around 14.2.

Is this normal for a series R/R?

Glen

Fixing what you know is wrong first is the best approach.

Without knowing what your voltage drops are I would be very hesitant about even speculating about +/-0.1V changes as you turn on and off things. I don't recall the setpoint on the SH-775 it is probably either 14.25 or 14.5V so you should be very close and have very low drops.

[glenwill]

Fixing what you know is wrong first is the best approach.

Without knowing what your voltage drops are I would be very hesitant about even speculating about +/-0.1V changes as you turn on and off things. I don't recall the setpoint on the SH-775 it is probably either 14.25 or 14.5V so you should be very close and have very low drops.

Thanks. I was mostly asking about having the idle charging voltage over 14 volts. With my previous R/R, idle charging was low/mid 13's, and would rise up with RPM to mid 14's. With this, I am at 14.2 even at idle. I'm assuming this is a benefit, and reflects a stable charging voltage at all RPMs, but I just wanted to confirm this.

Glen

[glenwill]

While doing some searching for wiring, I came across this post, a little too late:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?236972-DB-Electrical&highlight=db+electrical

My SSH775 was from this vendor. I never saw a conclusion on that post whether what they are selling is actually a series R/R, but to avoid it as a risk. Too late for me, but is there a way I can test it to confirm it is a series R/R?

Glen

[Grimly]

While doing some searching for wiring, I came across this post, a little too late:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?236972-DB-Electrical&highlight=db+electrical

My SSH775 was from this vendor. I never saw a conclusion on that post whether what they are selling is actually a series R/R, but to avoid it as a risk. Too late for me, but is there a way I can test it to confirm it is a series R/R?

Glen

If a vendor doesn't show the end plate so that you can see the Shindengen logo with the type number on it, you can assume it's a MOSFET and is being sold in a sneaky fashion which makes it a fake in my view. Even at that, we have seen fakes with fake logos and numbers on, but the typeface/spacing was wrong.
By this time, there are likely hundreds of owners out there who think they bought an SH775 series R-R and are treading the path to yet another burned-out stator, without realising it.
There is only one guaranteed way to buy a NEW genuine series SH-775; get it from a Polaris dealer. You can be sure if any of them start passing off crappy fakes as the real deal, they'll be in deep crap with Polaris, so that's some reassurance. You can buy a genuine used one, if you tread carefully and have a good look at the end plate. Breakers who won't show the end plate are dodgy, and worth avoiding.