SH 775 install

[posplayr]

1. Come,come. Resistance also iinvolves conductor size. (ie cross-section and length) A steel frame tube conducts as well or better than a 16 or 14 ga copper wire. The only trouble with ground to frames is the lug connection itself- a decent sized lug bolted to a clean steel frame has no problem. The only place to really wonder about is at the forks, which float on steel ball bearings. Don't ground stuff to the forks.

There are a variety of reasons for not using the frame ground, the frame resistance might not be the best argument as resistance is also a function of cross sectional area and length.

And I will also agree it it is the connection points that are also the main issue, but in the end you have to have some conenctions points and the fewer the number the better. But it is "how and where" the currents flow that is as important to the discussion as connection points. In fact this is the basic problem with this thread there are so is so much anecdotal evidence being provided without a real understanding of the flows.

The SPG is the optimum configuration for the way the currents flow to minimize voltage drops between battery and R/R. That is to say it optimizes the charging system performance with respect to the Phase A tests at 5K RPM.

The SPG as described is not the only way to ground the bike, but it is the only one that "optimizes" the performance with the least amount of wire.
It optimizes that performance because (in the construction of the SPG as described) the only current flowing in the wire between the R/R(-) and the battery(-) is the charging currents to the battery.

Clearly other ways will work but they will not be as good in terms of minimizing those ground voltage drops. As described the SPG harness minimizes the ground points you have to worry about (Ed's notion that somehow all ground ring lugs have to be stacked in one spot is demonstrating he has no clue what the theory is behind this approach). Ands it keeps the currents separate so only the charging currents flow as described above.

In the beginning, there was the circuitous GS grounding problem nobody understood except to accept that their GS would burn starors at regular intervals.

Then before I ever arrived at the GSR, Baltzor discovered that if he added a wire between the battery and the R/R(-) he could generally improve charging performance.

In around 2009 I set it as my objective to do more and to really understand the charging system and what caused it to fail and what optimize it's performance. After developing a simplified model of the charging system, it because clear that while, the addition of the Baltzor's single wire improved charging, it was really only a partial solution because his wire would now collect all currents (14 amps at 5K RPM) between the battery and the R/R and not just the charging currents (4 amps at 5K RPM). What ever connections you have between battery and R/R if you have 3 times the current you have 3 times the voltage drop.

And so the notion of a SPG was born and with my development of the SSPB I started shipping what I call a SPG Harness. It is three wires combined into a single ring lug for the SPG and you stack a 4th B/W wire from the harness.

The three wires are

1. R/R(-)
2. Battery(-)
3. Frame

All the wires are less than 1ft and this simple solution that optimizes performance has gotten more arguments simply because people have not put the effort to understanding the concepts. Clearly it is much more effort for some than others.

Some links to prior posts:

High Performance Power and Grounding

Ground Loops

[posplayr]

Leaving out the intermittent oil pressure, starter relay coil etc........
Frame returns
Lights
Ignitor
Coil primary
Fuel gauge

Gear indicator and coil secondaries probably have a choice and maybe split between the starter return cable and the engine mounts ?

Oil pressure (idiot light from the flow plate): yes that grounds the dash light through the engine, which flows to the main ground strap at the back of the motor to the battery(-) and then on to the R/R(_) depending upon how your system is grounded. This is probably less than 1/2 amp and is definitely not noisy.

Oil Temperature gauge: yes this will ground the same way. IIR the resistance is like 50 ohms so again well less than 1 amp and not going to be noisy.

starter relay coil: The coil actually ground to the harness B/W. which is the same wire that provides teh path fro all currents to the R/R unless you do a SPG. If this B/W is compromised it cause charging problems much worse that relay problems. For a stock bike the coil currents never see the frame. If you add a wire between R/r and battery(-) then they start flowing through to get back to the battery(-) and then on to the R/R(). This is where circuitous comes in.

Lights: I don't think that most of the signal lights or the head lamp are actually returning current anyway except through the B/W ring lugs that attach to the R/R(-) again depending on whether stock or modified.

Ignitor: This depends and is a mix, Points or Dyna S will ground to the engine, and Ignitor ground through the harness or the mounting plate which has ground picked up but a ring lug to travel to the B/W and the nto be routed over to the R/R(-).

Coil primary, this is the same current as the Ignitor category; depends.

Fuel gauge, my fuel gauge has two wires to return current. This is again something in the range of 1/2 amp or less.

Gear indicators yes these are all grounded to the engine.

Coil secondary NO the circuit is closed through the coil and the head and never reaches the frame.

Bottom line is that the vast majority of the current is from incandescent lights ( typically 10 amps but also depend on brakes/ blinkers)).
The ignition is on average 2.5 amps and it depending on type.
There are a variety of idiot lights and gauges that probably do not amount to much over 1 amps all together that ground through the engine which returns to battery (-) through the large ground lead at the back of the motor.

We might see Frame and engine as one in the same but they are really not as there are no bonding surfaces and the only conenctions are the various mounting bolts. There are no frame mounted ground as far as I recall on a stock GS. There are mounting plate grounds but these are not actual frame grounds.

It is ironic now that I think about it, that I'm actually the first one to actually say to connect to the frame and it is in the hope of pulling engine ground currents away from the battery. It may actually be better to mount them to the engine instead. But now we are starting to really split hairs.

[phydeauxmutt]

I have seen quite a bit of discussion about this "Single Point Ground" (SPG) theory and some of it gets quite ... "interesting". Can't say that I understand it fully, but I'm not an electrical engineer, either.

However, this statement just blows it out of the water for me:

(Ed's notion that somehow all ground ring lugs have to be stacked in one spot is demonstrating he has no clue what the theory is behind this approach).

Somehow, I have been under the delusion that the SINGLE POINT GROUND would have all the grounds coming to a SINGLE POINT. Personally, I would have thought that "all ground ring lugs ... stacked in one spot" would be the perfect example of a SINGLE POINT GROUND. I guess not.

I am thoroughly confused now, I'm going to go back and hide in my dog house.

[tom203]

Somehow, I have been under the delusion that the SINGLE POINT GROUND would have all the grounds coming to a SINGLE POINT. Personally, I would have thought that "all ground ring lugs ... stacked in one spot" would be the perfect example of a SINGLE POINT GROUND. I guess not.

I am thoroughly confused now, I'm going to go back and hide in my dog house.

Important thing is not lose sight of r/r having good contact with battery so it can keep honest view of it and maintain a decent system voltage. I add another wire from my so called single point ground to upper frame to collect returns from front half of bike.

[Brendan W]

Have you cleaned the fusebox yet? That is straight forward. The "T" is the only bit messy as you have to find it in the harness. On the 16V bikes it is about 3-4 inches in from where the red wire disappears.

Fusebox cleaned but I'm more concerned about the quality and availability of glass fuses. Had one or two new replacements get warm at one end and fall apart in my hand. Time for something more modern.

[Nessism]

(Ed's notion that somehow all ground ring lugs have to be stacked in one spot is demonstrating he has no clue what the theory is behind this approach).

My comment about gathering ground lugs together was in direct response to the quote below.

Now would be a good time to get a single point ground organised if you haven't already.
I have collected the two harness return b/w wires, the r/r negative and the starter solenoid ground together at one of the solenoid mounting screws. There is then a short wire from there to the battery negative.

I'm done with this thread. It's turned into yet another Jim dissertation on the bikes electrical system shortcomings. Whatever.

[Gorminrider]

Fusebox cleaned but I'm more concerned about the quality and availability of glass fuses. Had one or two new replacements get warm at one end and fall apart in my hand. Time for something more modern.

They are the very b*gger alright. I'm seeing several loose-ended ones ...(and I too will have to build something for the 650 soon...maybe I'll just buy a bunch of female blade connectors and mount them myself in some dremeled plastic.)

[posplayr]

I have seen quite a bit of discussion about this "Single Point Ground" (SPG) theory and some of it gets quite ... "interesting". Can't say that I understand it fully, but I'm not an electrical engineer, either.

However, this statement just blows it out of the water for me:

Somehow, I have been under the delusion that the SINGLE POINT GROUND would have all the grounds coming to a SINGLE POINT. Personally, I would have thought that "all ground ring lugs ... stacked in one spot" would be the perfect example of a SINGLE POINT GROUND. I guess not.

I am thoroughly confused now, I'm going to go back and hide in my dog house.

Grounding is described here as adding just two wires to clean up the circuitous grounding that left the factory.

In effect single point grounding means you separate out ground return currents for those currents that you want to keep separate which necessitates using a separate wires for each separate current. Whatever is seperate comes to a 'single point" when they all rejoin to return to the source. In this case the source is the R/R(-).

Single point grounding DOES NOT MEAN every return current is separated out so that you need a thousand wires for each pin on each component on each board. That clearly is impractical. In EE terms, SPG is synonymous about avoiding current sharing at a subsystem or box level.

Some links to prior posts:

High Performance Power and Grounding

Ground Loops

[posplayr]

My comment about gathering ground lugs together was in direct response to the quote below.



I'm done with this thread. It's turned into yet another Jim dissertation on the bikes electrical system shortcomings. Whatever.

Ed, you obviously have fundamental issues with the notion of "single point ground". You are welcome to voice those concerns in one of the electrical threads on grounding or in GS Charging health.

There are several members that have benefited by simply following the recommendations for grounding and in fact overall maintenance (cleaning fuse boxes is as important as adding ground wires) much of it is described in GS Charging health.

The GSR now has a theoretical and practical solution to understand and fix typical GS charging problems. If you have any issues make them known in those threads rather than here and then you won't see a diatribe on grounding here but there at least.

[Nessism]

Ed, you obviously have fundamental issues with the notion of "single point ground". You are welcome to voice those concerns in one of the electrical threads on grounding or in GS Charging health.

There are several members that have benefited by simply following the recommendations for grounding and in fact overall maintenance (cleaning fuse boxes is as important as adding ground wires) much of it is described in GS Charging health.

The GSR now has a theoretical and practical solution to understand and fix typical GS charging problems. If you have any issues make them known in those threads rather than here and then you won't see a diatribe on grounding here but there at least.

Jim,

I have never read any of your "single point ground" dissertation posts because I find that sort of business unnecessary.

Fixing the GS electrical system is quite simple:
1) get rid of the stator loop up to the hand control
2) improve R/R grounding, particular for bikes grounding through the battery box and/or electrical side panel
3) clean up the electrical connections including frame grounds

That's pretty much it other than maybe adding a SH775.

Keep it simple and realistic.

[posplayr]

Keep it simple and realistic.

With a broad brush you did cover most of the important stuff. However, if someone wants to get down to actually "how to do that" they would be left wanting.