Starter or battery?

[Guest]

Hello all! Being in the south this is the time of year when things really get nice enough for riding. I havent touched the bike for a bit for the summer months so it was just sitting up. I pulled it out a few weeks ago and started messing with it only to realize the battery was of course dead. I put the charger on it for a night and then it rained so I pulled charger off and let it sit another few weeks.

Fast forward a few more weeks and I try to jump it off the truck one afternoon bc I cant find the charger at the time and it will barely turn over a few times then stops completely. I assume its the battery so I go find the charger and let it sit and charge then still it wont even bump the starter. I troubleshot it back to the starter relay and replace that earlier this week and it sure it enough the starter barely turns over a bit. I do hear a moan from inside the case by the starter as well as water sloshing in the exhaust. I imagine the exhaust got some rain to fill the low spot so I put it on center stand and rock it back to get as much out as I can.

Charge it again over night and still it just barely turns the starter but it does turn it just not fast enough obviously to start bike. My questions are the following:

Could I have done damage to the motor by allowing water to fill up in exhaust? I cant imagine how any water could rise high enough to reach exhaust valves. I initially thought maybe the starter was straining trying to push water through exhaust but now that water is gone.

I obviously burned up that starter relay when I was trying to start it on a dead battery. It had been going out for a while since it would sometimes take several seconds of holding the start button for the relay to react. Could I have burned out the starter at the same time? I always assumed starters didnt get weaker but just either burned or didnt.

Is this just a case of a dead battery and how can I confirm that?

Thanks for any suggestions! The weather is so nice and Barber is right around the corner!

[Steve]

First of all, when you jumped it with your truck, I hope the truck was NOT RUNNING. If it was, you might have damaged more than the starter or the solenoid.

Your greatest friend in this adventure will be a decent voltmeter. Check the battery voltage before turning the key on, you should see over 12.5 volts. Exactly how much more will depend on the type of battery that you have.
Turn the key ON, check the voltage again. Should still be over 12.
Check voltage while pressing the starter button. If it goes less than 10, stop. Either fully charge the battery or get a new battery.

I was going to ask how water would get in your exhaust, then noticed your location.

Trying to start the engine with a dead battery will not burn up a solenoid (starter relay) or a starter, it will only further damage the battery. Holding the starter button for a while might work because you have pushed through some crud on the switch itself. Clean the contacts inside the switch.

Starters have brushes inside that do wear out. In the process of wearing out, there is a lot of dust generated. That dust might not make a graceful exit and will stay inside, clogging things up and creating problems. Might have to open up the starter to clean it out. Rebuild kits are available for reasonable money.

.

[last337]

First of all, when you jumped it with your truck, I hope the truck was NOT RUNNING. If it was, you might have damaged more than the starter or the solenoid.

Your greatest friend in this adventure will be a decent voltmeter. Check the battery voltage before turning the key on, you should see over 12.5 volts. Exactly how much more will depend on the type of battery that you have.
Turn the key ON, check the voltage again. Should still be over 12.
Check voltage while pressing the starter button. If it goes less than 10, stop. Either fully charge the battery or get a new battery.

I was going to ask how water would get in your exhaust, then noticed your location.

Trying to start the engine with a dead battery will not burn up a solenoid (starter relay) or a starter, it will only further damage the battery. Holding the starter button for a while might work because you have pushed through some crud on the switch itself. Clean the contacts inside the switch.

Starters have brushes inside that do wear out. In the process of wearing out, there is a lot of dust generated. That dust might not make a graceful exit and will stay inside, clogging things up and creating problems. Might have to open up the starter to clean it out. Rebuild kits are available for reasonable money.

.

Thanks for the reply. Just to clarify, when I push the start switch, you can hear the relay click and the starter struggles to barely turn the motor then just whines a bit. Based on what you are saying I really think I killed the battery because I did at one point start the truck although the connections to the battery through the jumper cables were pretty weak. I replaced the stator, reg/rectifier when I got the bike and went through a number of those connections at the same time. The fact that it does actually engage relay/starter makes me think I didnt damage anything else. However, that battery is only a year old. I know motorcycle batteries are temperamental and I have cranked on it off and on over the last year with big gaps where it was completely dead.

Anything else I should check?

[Steve]

Yes. Get a voltmeter, do the checks. If and when you get the bike running, check the charging system to make sure you didn't kill it by jump-starting with a running truck.

The reason a running vehicle will kill the bike's charging system is that the regulated voltage setpoint on the car (truck) might be just a bit higher than the setpoint on the bike. Let's say that the truck is set at 14.4, the bike is set at 14.1. When the bike sees 14.2, it goes into "regulate" mode, which normally shunts the stator output away from the bike and back through the stator. The truck sees this as an additional load, so it boosts its ouput to try to get back up to 14.4. In the meantime, the current (amps) keep building. The bikes regulator is sized to handle the maximum output of the bike, which might be about 25 amps, but the alternator on your truck might be able to pump out over 100 amps (my van is rated at 140). Guess which device gives up and dies.

As stated earlier, there is no need to guess what is failing. Get a voltmeter, make a couple of quick measurements, you will soon KNOW where your problem lies.

.

[last337]

Yes. Get a voltmeter, do the checks. If and when you get the bike running, check the charging system to make sure you didn't kill it by jump-starting with a running truck.

The reason a running vehicle will kill the bike's charging system is that the regulated voltage setpoint on the car (truck) might be just a bit higher than the setpoint on the bike. Let's say that the truck is set at 14.4, the bike is set at 14.1. When the bike sees 14.2, it goes into "regulate" mode, which normally shunts the stator output away from the bike and back through the stator. The truck sees this as an additional load, so it boosts its ouput to try to get back up to 14.4. In the meantime, the current (amps) keep building. The bikes regulator is sized to handle the maximum output of the bike, which might be about 25 amps, but the alternator on your truck might be able to pump out over 100 amps (my van is rated at 140). Guess which device gives up and dies.

As stated earlier, there is no need to guess what is failing. Get a voltmeter, make a couple of quick measurements, you will soon KNOW where your problem lies.

.

Well that battery didnt last long. Did your test after having charger on it all day. 12.8 with key on and dropped to 7.5 when pressing start button. New battery on the way!

Thanks!!

[Steve]

Did you get another wet-cell or did you spring for a sealed AGM battery?

Note that "AGM" is a construction style, not a brand name.

.

[last337]

I got another AGM maintenance free battery and finally got it today. I just put it in and realized it didnt come with much of a charge so the charger is on it right now. Hopefully this will get things going!