Starter Relay grounding?

[Guest]

recently tore down my 81 gs650 that I purchased back in may - gutted/ cleaned carbs, cleaned inside gas tank, basically upgraded and fixed all ground wiring, fixed airbox issues, checked valve clearances, general cleaning/ inspection of overall bike, etc.

just got everything back together today - put a new battery and fresh gas in - turned key, clicked starter button - nothing, not even a "click" so right away thinking starter circuit issues.. jumped the relay starter and it started up right away. (runs decent btw)

many would say replace the starter relay right off the bat but I've read a few threads now where people are saying "make sure theres a good ground to the relay" the real question.. is there a reason why the battery box isn't grounded (are the rubber grommets between the frame and battery box for isolation from ground or just to dull vibration?) and would it be ok to go ahead and add ground under the starter relay mounting screw? - in doing so grounding the battery box.

side note: just before I started the bike I oiled the throttle cable, because it was sticking, and to do that I took apart the throttle assembly on the handlebars, which also includes the starter button and switch... so theres a strong chance the issue could be caused by me removing that assembly and maybe moving or breaking an already corroded wire or connection point BUT it was getting late and decided ill troubleshoot in the morning. but again is it ok to ground the battery box?

[Steve]

Yes. It's not just "OK", it is rather necessary to ground the battery box, mainly because of the starter solenoid.

If your fusebox has an Accessory fuse, there should also be two screw terminals at the end of the fusebox. One of those screws is the HOT from the fuse, the other one is a GROUND. Guess where it gets its ground? Yep, from the wire you are about to install.

Before you go taking things apart again, are you aware of the "safety" switch in the clutch? In Suzuki's infinite wisdom to protect us from ourselves, it was necessary to pull the clutch lever to be able to engage the electric starter. Many of us have bypassed that "safety" feature, but yours might still be connected, so pull the clutch lever and try starting the engine.

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[tom203]

My 81 came with a wire from negative battery post with other end attached to battery box. This is a weak spot...for good charging purposes best to extend this wire to a better spot. I used one of the mounting bolts that hold the ignitor/regulator plate to the frame - this became my common grounding point . This helps the r/r "see" the battery better.

[chuck hahn]

You can make a wire up that will go behind one of the selinoid mount bolts and go right to the NEG post of the battery as well.

[polletttim]

perfect! so clearly the rubber grommets are just there to dampen vibration of the battery, not for isolation of the battery box. I'll get to it tomorrow and let everybody know how it goes.

one of the previous owners painted the frame and put grounds back on painted surfaces which burned up all of the grounds in the wiring harness, showing how important proper grounding is. I've added a "common ground" point on the frame, on a battery box mounting tab, right under where the starter relay is located, so I may just move that grounding point or add a 3 inch jumper lol

Steve I'm aware of the safety switch from reading the wiring diagram in the maintenance manual, but I think ill leave that on there for now because I am one of those who need to be saved from themselves.

[Redman]

...........
just got everything back together today - put a new battery and fresh gas in - turned key, clicked starter button - nothing, not even a "click" ..............

Are yolu askng if the starter relay ground could be a suspect in the "nothing".....?
Generally the answer would be 'yes',
but in your case you said you "jumped the starter relay" and it started: If you meant you jumped the big terminals, then "yes" the starter relay ground could still be a suspect. If you menat you jumped the little terminal (for the startrer button circuit) and it started, then "No, the relay ground is no longer a suspect".


Other note: In the stock wiring there should be a blk/wht wire going to the starter relay mounting bolt. THis wire is TO GROUND the battery box (not to ground the wire).

[polletttim]

Redman my battery box isn't grounded at the moment and I jumped the big terminals on the starter relay to get the bike going. thanks for the concern haha I can see where people could get mixed up if they're not sure what they're doing.

when I removed all the factory grounds/wiring and replaced them I never noticed or maybe just forgot wether or not the battery box was grounded.. its all cleared up now and im gonna put a ground under the starter relay mounting bolt or something of the sort, which would ground the battery box.

[chuck hahn]

To test the slinoid, unplug the wire going to it. Use a jumper wire from the battery positive and touch the lead from the selinoid. If its good it will click. If it doesnt click add the ground wire and try it again. If it clicks it needed a better ground. If it still will not click its toast..replace.

[posplayr]

Redman my battery box isn't grounded at the moment and I jumped the big terminals on the starter relay to get the bike going. thanks for the concern haha I can see where people could get mixed up if they're not sure what they're doing.

when I removed all the factory grounds/wiring and replaced them I never noticed or maybe just forgot wether or not the battery box was grounded.. its all cleared up now and im gonna put a ground under the starter relay mounting bolt or something of the sort, which would ground the battery box.

I'm not going to explain all the theory, but if you simply implemented the SPG at your battery box, which I think mounts the ignitor, R/R, and solenoid you would be done.

If you dont want to do that, at least start replacing the word "grounded", with how is this current going to get back to it's source. The source can be either battery (when the bike is off) or R/r(-) (when the bike is on).

From your description, it is not clear how your harness B/W returns current to the R/R(-).

[polletttim]

I'm not going to explain all the theory, but if you simply implemented the SPG at your battery box, which I think mounts the ignitor, R/R, and solenoid you would be done.

If you dont want to do that, at least start replacing the word "grounded", with how is this current going to get back to it's source. The source can be either battery (when the bike is off) or R/r(-) (when the bike is on).

From your description, it is not clear how your harness B/W returns current to the R/R(-).

the ignitor and r/r are physically mounted under the airbox - not touching the frame at all and the starter solenoid is mounted on the side of the battery box.. if thats what you're referring to?

I'm not sure what previous owners have changed(if anything) but the wiring was a mess. I just tried to clean up the issues the bike had when I bought it - like 90% of the B/W in the main wiring harness were burned up (luckily not causing too much damage to surrounding wires in the harness) I replaced the burned up B/W with 14awg and brought it back to a point on the frame where the battery box mounts.. there I also have the r/r and a 14awg from the (-) battery post. so the r/r is fine

my main question was wether or not the battery box should be isolated from the frame (because of the rubber grommets), but thats cleared up now thanks to everyones replies - so I should be good to go in that sense.

I have decent understanding im just not good at explaining lol

[Redman]

.............. im gonna put a ground under the starter relay mounting bolt or something of the sort, which would ground the battery box.

Yes, you need to run a ground wire to there TO GROUND the battery box (and, more importanly; the starter relay and the R/R).

[posplayr]

the ignitor and r/r are physically mounted under the airbox - not touching the frame at all and the starter solenoid is mounted on the side of the battery box.. if thats what you're referring to?

I'm not sure what previous owners have changed(if anything) but the wiring was a mess. I just tried to clean up the issues the bike had when I bought it - like 90% of the B/W in the main wiring harness were burned up (luckily not causing too much damage to surrounding wires in the harness) I replaced the burned up B/W with 14awg and brought it back to a point on the frame where the battery box mounts.. there I also have the r/r and a 14awg from the (-) battery post. so the r/r is fine

my main question was wether or not the battery box should be isolated from the frame (because of the rubber grommets), but thats cleared up now thanks to everyones replies - so I should be good to go in that sense.

I have decent understanding im just not good at explaining lol

One reason why you are having a problem conveying what you are doing is the lack of a schematic representing the physical configuration.

Sounds like you made the frame the SPG with stacked connections for R/R(-), B/W harness, Battery (-) but left the battery box floating which causes the solenoid to have no return path. You have now added a ground for the battery. Running to the from battery box to same frame ground would be best given that configuration(although not critical). No reason to construct another B/W from the harness.

BTW I ran into the same burned ground wire problem back in 2007 when I first purchased by old GS750EX. To the best of my knowledge that ground wire burns because a poor ground on the R/R which forces all of the return currents through the harness (I actually had two B/W wires burned). This occurs because of overcharging beyond what old-style shunt R/Rs can control using single leg SCR control.

Fixing the ground as you appear to have done was enough to solve my bikes problem I never went to a Series R/R.


If you run the Stator Pages Phase A tests you can measure your changing system voltage drops and see how successful you really were in fixing the grounding. You will also measure the positive side which will probably be worse.

[posplayr]

Yes, you need to run a ground wire to there TO GROUND the battery box (and, more importanly; the starter relay and the R/R).

+2 ......................

[polletttim]

One reason why you are having a problem conveying what you are doing is the lack of a schematic representing the physical configuration.

Sounds like you made the frame the SPG with stacked connections for R/R(-), B/W harness, Battery (-) but left the battery box floating which causes the solenoid to have no return path. You have now added a ground for the battery. Running to the from battery box to same frame ground would be best given that configuration(although not critical). No reason to construct another B/W from the harness.

BTW I ran into the same burned ground wire problem back in 2007 when I first purchased by old GS750EX. To the best of my knowledge that ground wire burns because a poor ground on the R/R which forces all of the return currents through the harness (I actually had two B/W wires burned). This occurs because of overcharging beyond what old-style shunt R/Rs can control using single leg SCR control.

Fixing the ground as you appear to have done was enough to solve my bikes problem I never went to a Series R/R.


If you run the Stator Pages Phase A tests you can measure your changing system voltage drops and see how successful you really were in fixing the grounding. You will also measure the positive side which will probably be worse.

good info! when I start up the bike tomorrow (assuming the starter solenoid will work) I will do the stator pages phase A tests like you are suggesting.

[polletttim]

just put a short jumper from my SPG to under the starter solenoid mounting bolt and it starts properly with the push start button now.

gonna head over the stator pages and check everything over. thanks for the input everybody!