Starter Relay grounding?

[posplayr]

Here is a picture that might help you visualize how the current flows through your bike. The R/R(+) is the source of all power when riding. The battery is just a store that gets depleted if charging voltage does not exceed 12.8v (typ) which is the minimum required to push current into the battery.
The two green wires are usually not on a stock GS which is what contributes to the GS charging problems. The R/R and the battery are not tied together very well on the ground side increasing resistance and lowering charging voltage.

You can see current traveling in the frame, needs to crawl up one B/W ring lug wire to the B/W crimp in the harness then come out the other B/W ring lug to get to what is typically a solenoid ground. The R/R(-) ground wire is usually close to or stacked under the same mounting bolt.

By realizing all current coming out of R/R(+) the red wire, needs to return to its source on R/R(-), it is perhaps self-explanatory why that mounting bolt become the focal point for collecting up all currents so they can get back to the R/R(-). That final jump from SPG to R/R(-) has to support 14A and so care should be taken in making sure those connections are very clean and you are using a substantial(14 AWG) but short wire (<1 ft).

You should notice (if all connections are clean) that the only current flowing from the battery(-) to the SPG is the battery charging current (3 amps). Anything else like harness returns or anything through the frame (like Dyna-S) will get picked up by another path.

If you ground the R/R(-) to the battery (-) then all the 14 amps comes to that point before making what is usually a 2 ft wire to the R/R(-). It can work but it is far more likely to develop a larger voltage drop that way.

[polletttim]

Here is a picture that might help you visualize how the current flows through your bike. The R/R(+) is the source of all power when riding. The battery is just a store that gets depleted if charging voltage does not exceed 12.8v (typ) which is the minimum required to push current into the battery.
The two green wires are usually not on a stock GS which is what contributes to the GS charging problems. The R/R and the battery are not tied together very well on the ground side increasing resistance and lowering charging voltage.

If you ground the R/R(-) to the battery (-) then all the 14 amps comes to that point before making what is usually a 2 ft wire to the R/R(-). It can work but it is far more likely to develop a larger voltage drop that way.

perfect, easy to see. one thing about the stock R/R.. being shunt style.. is it constantly charging the battery or does it stop charging the battery every once in a while like a switch or shunt when the battery reaches a certain charge or the R/R gets to a certain temperature?

[posplayr]

perfect, easy to see. one thing about the stock R/R.. being shunt style.. is it constantly charging the battery or does it stop charging the battery every once in a while like a switch or shunt when the battery reaches a certain charge or the R/R gets to a certain temperature?

The stator is AC and pulsed but when you add all three together you pretty much get DC out. However, once the battery voltage gets high enough, the R/R will start shutting off during the advances of individual AC pulses. This tends to trim the voltage v.s. being completely shut off.

As far as the difference between SERIES and SHUNT, from the R/R DC output side they pretty much look the same. DC out with some ripple. It is what is going on with the stator where they are different. When the shunt "trims" the voltage, it does that by shorting out a stator winding. That clamps any voltage as it basically doesn't allow enough voltage for anything to come out basically disconnecting the R/R from the battery during the shorting process (due to blocking diodes in the bridge rectifier).

The SERIES is quite a bit different, there is no diode bridge, the SERIES can rapidly connect or disconnect from the battery to control voltage. When it disconnects the battery has to supply current and it is being depleted which stops charging. When the SERIES is connected, current can flow to the battery increasing voltage. Careful control of the timing allows output charging voltage to be maintained at about 14.5V.

The big deal in all this is that shorting the stator winding (by the SHUNT R/R) makes them run hot. So depending on how you ride your bike, how much oil it has in it, how much cooling capacity you are at the hairy edge of overheating the stator which eventually burns the insulation causing shorts.

If you ever pull your stator cover and it looks heat damage, you would be better off to get a Series R/R because this will relieve a lot of the stress on the stator and give many thousands of miles more lifetime to your changing system. This is because not only is the stator stressed by this shorting, the R/R is as well.

If you ever start changing out to LED's or have a burned out headlamp bulb, you are likely to way overstress the stator and R/R. That is because those old loads are no longer there and so the R/R has to short even more to control the voltage resulting in even more heat. It is even worse than that. The power that is dissipated in the stator can actually be much more than you might anticipate. That is because the power dissipated is proportional to stator resistance. You might only measure 0.5-1.0 ohms per leg at room temperature, at so there might be only 50-100 watts dissipated out of about 220 Watts max.

The problem is that when the stator heats up there is even more resistance but the same amount of current so the power can get much higher. You can even measure 50-75 degF(IIRC) the stator side cover temperature difference with a thermal imager.

[polletttim]

The stator is AC and pulsed but when you add all three together you pretty much get DC out. However, once the battery voltage gets high enough, the R/R will start shutting off during the advances of individual AC pulses. This tends to trim the voltage v.s. being completely shut off.

As far as the difference between SERIES and SHUNT, from the R/R DC output side they pretty much look the same. DC out with some ripple. It is what is going on with the stator where they are different. When the shunt "trims" the voltage, it does that by shorting out a stator winding. That clamps any voltage as it basically doesn't allow enough voltage for anything to come out basically disconnecting the R/R from the battery during the shorting process (due to blocking diodes in the bridge rectifier).

The SERIES is quite a bit different, there is no diode bridge, the SERIES can rapidly connect or disconnect from the battery to control voltage. When it disconnects the battery has to supply current and it is being depleted which stops charging. When the SERIES is connected, current can flow to the battery increasing voltage. Careful control of the timing allows output charging voltage to be maintained at about 14.5V.

Ok so you could see the voltage being "trimmed" while checking the battery voltage with the multimeter while the bike is running, correct? I noticed yesterday when I was doing the quick charging test that every so many minutes(give or take) it was as if charging would stop and it would maintain 12.8V then after another minute or so it would start charging again for a few minutes and give all the right numbers at 2500-5000rpm according to the quick charging test guide.. all within 0.2Vdc(+/-).. I was concerned there might be a loose connection or the R/R might have been on its way out.

The big deal in all this is that shorting the stator winding (by the SHUNT R/R) makes them run hot. So depending on how you ride your bike, how much oil it has in it, how much cooling capacity you are at the hairy edge of overheating the stator which eventually burns the insulation causing shorts.

If you ever pull your stator cover and it looks heat damage, you would be better off to get a Series R/R because this will relieve a lot of the stress on the stator and give many thousands of miles more lifetime to your changing system. This is because not only is the stator stressed by this shorting, the R/R is as well.

If you ever start changing out to LED's or have a burned out headlamp bulb, you are likely to way overstress the stator and R/R. That is because those old loads are no longer there and so the R/R has to short even more to control the voltage resulting in even more heat. It is even worse than that. The power that is dissipated in the stator can actually be much more than you might anticipate. That is because the power dissipated is proportional to stator resistance. You might only measure 0.5-1.0 ohms per leg at room temperature, at so there might be only 50-100 watts dissipated out of about 220 Watts max.

The problem is that when the stator heats up there is even more resistance but the same amount of current so the power can get much higher. You can even measure 50-75 degF(IIRC) the stator side cover temperature difference with a thermal imager.

I guess it all depends on certain variables like bike size, riding style, and climate. Where I live we only get a few weeks of summer weather where the temperature gets above 25șC.. most days are within the 20șC range(short riding season). It was a balmy 6șC yesterday when I did the quick charge test, which is unseasonably chilly. I would say my riding style isn't "aggressive" but more actively relaxed lol. Also I was reading how anything over a 750 is pushing the short life span of a stock R/R so my 650 is maybe just under that limit, again depending on certain variables. I don't know what the bike has been through with previous owners.
If I decide to mod the bike at all, in the near or distant future, ill probably try to get a series R/R so I can be confident about the charging system but right now im just getting the thing running good with stock settings so I can put a few kilometres on it this summer.

[posplayr]

Ok so you could see the voltage being "trimmed" while checking the battery voltage with the multimeter while the bike is running, correct? I noticed yesterday when I was doing the quick charging test that every so many minutes(give or take) it was as if charging would stop and it would maintain 12.8V then after another minute or so it would start charging again for a few minutes and give all the right numbers at 2500-5000rpm according to the quick charging test guide.. all within 0.2Vdc(+/-).. I was concerned there might be a loose connection or the R/R might have been on its way out.



I guess it all depends on certain variables like bike size, riding style, and climate. Where I live we only get a few weeks of summer weather where the temperature gets above 25șC.. most days are within the 20șC range(short riding season). It was a balmy 6șC yesterday when I did the quick charge test, which is unseasonably chilly. I would say my riding style isn't "aggressive" but more actively relaxed lol. Also I was reading how anything over a 750 is pushing the short life span of a stock R/R so my 650 is maybe just under that limit, again depending on certain variables. I don't know what the bike has been through with previous owners.
If I decide to mod the bike at all, in the near or distant future, ill probably try to get a series R/R so I can be confident about the charging system but right now im just getting the thing running good with stock settings so I can put a few kilometres on it this summer.

Trimming I'm referring to is happening during each electrical cycle of the AC waveform. That is 18 poles per revolution so it is happening many times per second. I doubt it is having any changes that are occurring over a minute or two.

The 750 engine surface area is about the same as the 1000 but 25% less combustion area. So you are in a better situation. Same for my 750E (16V) compared to a 1100E (16V). If you pull the stator cover and have a lot at what the stator looks like. Remeber that poor connections can cause problems.

I had a brand new electrosport R/R I was testing and comparing to FET and SERIES R/Rs. The electrosport immediately got very hot to the touch. It turned out the connector pins had not been crimped very well. This caused a slightly higher resistance that caused the R/R to think it was overcharging. The SHUNT R/R shorts the stator to counter what it through was over voltage (due to poor connection). It was probably frying the stator and itself till I pulled it out and cut the wires off and they it in the junk box.