Charging system hasn't failed, should I mess with it?

[Steve]

I've always been one to leave something alone if it works, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

What do you guys think?

I think you have the wrong attitude there.
That should read: "If it ain't broke, fix it until it IS."

I seem to remember (but my memory sometime fail) that it may not be recommenced to eliminate the headlamp loop unless you first install a series type RR like a SH-775. I could be wrong.

I'm unsure as to why that would be necessary? The loop only consists of extra wire and a few connections. Yes, this wire and connections add a slight amount of resistance but if they're clean it should be minimal, therefore I don't see how removing the loop would have much negative effect on the factory R/R. All you're doing is removing potential failure points. Unless I'm wrong????

You are not wrong.
You have to remember that wherever you see a connector, there are actually THREE interfaces, each of which is a potential corrosion point. The first interface is from the wire to the brass terminal inside the connector. The second interface is from one brass terminal to another one inside the joined connector. The third interface is from that second brass terminal to the next wire. From the stator, there is a connector that goes into the main harness. Another connector under the tank that leads to the loop-back. Back through that connector on another set of terminals, then finally through the connector to the R/R. Four connectors, for a total of 12 possible corrosion points. Bypassing that loop leaves you with one connector, only three corrosion points. No extra strain on the R/R, it can be done with a stock R/R safely.

I re-purpose these as convenenient paths forward from the rear.

I have done that, as well. It involves a bit of re-wiring in the terminal under the tank, but it's VERY convenient and a clean way to re-purpose that wire.

The old switch was part of a rather unusual but clever simple regulation circuit than most bikes used...only one leg (twards the headlight) was actually regulated, I think.

I surmise when the headlight switch was off , the two legs remaining in circuit were UNREGULATEDand could not alone overcharge the battery... this explains the colour coding of the wires too, -a bit unusual among alternators-which somewhat supports my idea, I think.

You are close, but not quite there.
Yes, only one leg was regulated, but it was one of the two that was still connected when the headlight was turned off. The third stator leg went to the headlight switch, which had two sets of contacts. One set actually controlled the 12 volt current to the headlight, the other set was the AC current from the stator to the R/R. Since the output of that one phase of the stator was close to the draw of the headlight, they were turned on and off together to prevent overpowering the stock regulator when the headlight was turned off. The US adopted the "headlight on" law, most of the rest of the world still had a functioning switch, so the main harness was left intact, only the sub-harness to the left handgrip was changed. US models got the loop-back, the rest of the world had wires going to the headlight switch.

.

[salty_monk]

If the bike is in good shape otherwise.. the thing to most likely let you down is the electrics. Cleaning all the connectors & grounds & spending $50 on a series RR would be well worth it in my opinion. The trouble with the GS electrics is that they are fine... until they ain't.

You could clean it all up & take the chance, but it may be tough to get a replacement RR & stator on the road.

[Gorminrider]

Yes, only one leg was regulated, but it was one of the two that was still connected when the headlight was turned off.

thanks for reading, Steve. I've yet to find anything here on the original R/R that came with many (not all though?-the GSX400s for sure!...).and have been "making it up"from this diagram from the 250-350 shop manual (same reg on a gsx400 and I'm guessing others up-to the running light law....

Closeup-SuzukiRR-ShopManual-250-300.jpg
Um, your comment is a little hard to get but I'm only into the first coffee....explain?

[Nessism]

Here is a SH775 for $40.50 shipped. You can attach wires to it using standard spade terminals and then fill up the cavity with low acid RTV (safe for electrical parts.) At that price point there is no reason not to make the conversion.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEADOO-4-TEC-OEM-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-710001103-2008-MODELS-GTX-RXP-RXT-GTI-WAKE/303263253260?epid=1834197494&hash=item469be6030c%3Ag%3AaLQAAOSwfDtdYTOF&LH_ItemCondition=4

[93Bandit]

Here is a SH775 for $40.50 shipped. You can attach wires to it using standard spade terminals and then fill up the cavity with low acid RTV (safe for electrical parts.) At that price point there is no reason not to make the conversion.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEADOO-4-TE...temCondition=4

Is that a "real" one? I know there's many fakes out there and I'm not entirely sure how to tell a real one from a fake one.

For $40 I should probably do it. When I've looked in the past, I couldn't find any for less than $100.

[posplayr]

Is that a "real" one? I know there's many fakes out there and I'm not entirely sure how to tell a real one from a fake one.

For $40 I should probably do it. When I've looked in the past, I couldn't find any for less than $100.

It is real becuase its says SH-775 on the side of the housing; fakes do not!

[93Bandit]

I guess that's pretty straight forward.

[Rijko]

Maybe time to create a sticky for this ?

This does not show fakes, but at least has some pointers.

[Burque73]

93Bandit, I doubt anyone can accurately tell you when that the charging system will fail. On the other hand, nobody wants to tell you it won't fail and have that on their conscience if it does happen. You've read enough on this topic to know the risk and can now make a tough decision, but you have to make it. (Sounds like your seriously considering the R/R swap, but I typed most of this yesterday and figured I'd finish and post it.)

I will say that my charging system seemed fine with 27k miles on an immaculate, near mint looking bike. It lived in the dry desert southwest, in a garage of a mechanic school's instructor. Needs nothing, he said when I bought it (which was far from the truth). New battery, cranks strong etc. etc. After sorting many hidden issues with this new to me bike, I decided to head out on a 400 mile trip which went just fine. Later on, during my second trip, after 500 miles, I found myself stranded in the middle of nowhere. Couldn't bump start, battery was shot, R/R fried! Called my wife from a dying cell phone and waited for five hours to be rescued.

The good side of this story is that in the middle of the Alamo Navajo Reservation, at midnight, with no clouds in the sky, one can see the Milky Way and it leads to deep thoughts about our existence. About how so many people groups exist on this spinning rock and we all speak different languages. Some, being more technologically advanced than others and one group, in particular, on an island in the Pacific was able to engineer, assemble and mass produce millions and millions of these machines that so efficiently carry us to such uninhabited locations. Furthermore, one of these methodically assembled machines transported me to this magical place, waiting until this precise moment to reveal it's secret. Oh, how many millions of people around the world, in utter silence and solitude, must have gazed upon the heavens pondering the answer to this question.

Now, in this moment, this long moment, of pondering why, why did it choose this exact place and time to reveal such a dark secret? You, my friend, have an advantage. You have the opportunity to never need to ask this question.



So, in my case, the R/R failed. I had good grounds and thought I had cleaned and used dieclectric grease on all connections, but maybe I missed one or the unit was just done. When that unit failed it let the stator pump way too much power into the battery putting a strain on the battery and the rest of the wiring. In all, after a wonderful evening under the stars, I ordered an SH775 and purchased a new battery. The stator lasted another 18k miles before giving up. Fortunately I was in town this time and could bump start when I had to shut off the engine.

A volt meter to monitor your charging voltage would help you at least determine if you need to ride to a civilized location before shutting off the bike. If the voltage varies out of the 13v to 14v range you'll know right away.

Just for reference, here's where I was star gazing that night. Took this at dusk. Thankfully that haze on the horizon didn't block the view after dark.

[posplayr]

93Bandit, I doubt anyone can accurately tell you when that the charging system will fail. On the other hand, nobody wants to tell you it won't fail and have that on their conscience if it does happen. You've read enough on this topic to know the risk and can now make a tough decision, but you have to make it. (Sounds like your seriously considering the R/R swap, but I typed most of this yesterday and figured I'd finish and post it.)

I will say that my charging system seemed fine with 27k miles on an immaculate, near mint looking bike. It lived in the dry desert southwest, in a garage of a mechanic school's instructor. Needs nothing, he said when I bought it (which was far from the truth). New battery, cranks strong etc. etc. After sorting many hidden issues with this new to me bike, I decided to head out on a 400 mile trip which went just fine. Later on, during my second trip, after 500 miles, I found myself stranded in the middle of nowhere. Couldn't bump start, battery was shot, R/R fried! Called my wife from a dying cell phone and waited for five hours to be rescued.

The good side of this story is that in the middle of the Alamo Navajo Reservation, at midnight, with no clouds in the sky, one can see the Milky Way and it leads to deep thoughts about our existence. About how so many people groups exist on this spinning rock and we all speak different languages. Some, being more technologically advanced than others and one group, in particular, on an island in the Pacific was able to engineer, assemble and mass produce millions and millions of these machines that so efficiently carry us to such uninhabited locations. Furthermore, one of these methodically assembled machines transported me to this magical place, waiting until this precise moment to reveal it's secret. Oh, how many millions of people around the world, in utter silence and solitude, must have gazed upon the heavens pondering the answer to this question.

Now, in this moment, this long moment, of pondering why, why did it choose this exact place and time to reveal such a dark secret? You, my friend, have an advantage. You have the opportunity to never need to ask this question.



So, in my case, the R/R failed. I had good grounds and thought I had cleaned and used dieclectric grease on all connections, but maybe I missed one or the unit was just done. When that unit failed it let the stator pump way too much power into the battery putting a strain on the battery and the rest of the wiring. In all, after a wonderful evening under the stars, I ordered an SH775 and purchased a new battery. The stator lasted another 18k miles before giving up. Fortunately I was in town this time and could bump start when I had to shut off the engine.

A volt meter to monitor your charging voltage would help you at least determine if you need to ride to a civilized location before shutting off the bike. If the voltage varies out of the 13v to 14v range you'll know right away.

Just for reference, here's where I was star gazing that night. Took this at dusk. Thankfully that haze on the horizon didn't block the view after dark.

You are exactly correct that there are unseen cumulative stresses that the charging system has been exposed to that are difficult if not impossible to discern.

The shunt style R/R stresses both the stator and the R/R (as well as the wiring between the two) with the most probable outcome being the stator insulation burns and fails. Alternatively the R/R may fail first on one of several ways. The most likely is either A, it shorts out blowing the main fuse, or B.) stops regulating and over charges the battery.

There are two tests that I mentioned that do look for cumulative damage to the stator. A.) leg to ground VAC tests at 5K RPM and B.) visual inspection of the stator.

You can also look for cumulative damage in the form of melted connector for the stator connects.

In contrast you can't measure cumulative damage to the R/R . It is a sealed unit and there are no tests without special equipment to test the unit stand alone.

The charging system involves R/R ,stator , battery and wiring and it can all go to $hit under various failure scenarios. The only reason I can see to not change an R/R to a series unit is if the stator does not show excessive heating. If it does everything else is being stresses or could see additional stress as well.

[Gorminrider]

(steve) ...I guess this is what you mean...from my 650 manual. Indeed you are correct-two legs only! "switched leg" is not obviously regulated excepting by the "voltage plane" imposed by the others? for lack of a better handle.. This'd be the Nippon-Denso ? original. Mine certainly got hot and I replaced it.Suzuki650 Reg diagram.jpg

[Gorminrider]

Lastly, (drifting away solving a dead case ...) the Honda 232-238 Shunt...yes, they are not the Fave R/R hereabouts, but the comparison of all this points to a possible reason the Suzuki R/Rs failed so badly, where the Honda shindegnen did not...with three shunt scrs..weak varnish with oil dripping on them might be yet another.
BETTER rectifier_scheme Honda shunt.jpg

[posplayr]

(steve) ...I guess this is what you mean...from my 650 manual. Indeed you are correct-two legs only! "switched leg" is not obviously regulated This'd be the Nippon-Denso ? original. Mine certainly got hot and I replaced it.[ATTACH=CONFIG]59786[/ATTACH]

Here is the early GS750E 16V R/R. It shorts the entire output positive side

GS750E_16V.jpg

[Gorminrider]

yes, Posplayer...looks to be the same r/r as the one from my GSX400, (as in the gs250-300's) I printed a few posts up...)

Whatever the problem with "shunts" both of these must be weak compared to the shindengen varieties...

[posplayr]

I may be mis interpreting the schematic of the single SCR, but it appears when the SCR is shorted it is shorting the low Bl/W stator leg to the positive terminal of the battery.

Back in about 2010, I deduced that due to the limited control authority (only a single stator leg), this was the only way for a battery to overcharge.

There was simple no way that I could rationalize that bad connection could cause overcharging with a 5 wire R/R ( excluding the 6 wire with voltage sense).