No Spark either side till i release the starter button

[TheAlt]

bat is 3 months old Walmart one.
Normally holds high 12vdc to lower 13 vdc.

Looking at the mods and some relays on Amaz.. for 12 30-40amp bosch style.
Reading the schematics and just need to figure out what mod I want. Do like High/Low on when on high and like the horn flashing lights as well, but will start with the coil one.
However, I suspect the no spark will continue till I find the other issue now since the coil mod and my test of putting + direct to the coils and no spark still are about the same - the relay being added.

Will look more into the bike when it's a touch warmer outside in the next day or 2.

Alt

[TheAlt]

Hope the formatting is not too goofy.

Got around to running some tests
Stator still tests out .7 OHMs on all 3 wires testing across and O.L when testing these to ground.

Recap of the issue
Still NO spark either side including when releasing the starter button which as previously posted worked till I cleaned every terminal

Tests run


For all Tests below the Batter Voltage was around 13.8x - 13.9vdc with the key off.
The tests were done by disconnecting various components to isolate where the drain is.
Headlamp was disconnected
All lamps remove from console.
Stop, Tail, Turn bulbs still installed.


All connections cleaned and greased with Dielectric grease.

I'm hoping this is the in the Coils vs the Ignitor but below are the numbers and the tests done.




Bear in-mind each test number set should only be compared to itself and not across tests as Voltage changes / temperature / time all affected the starting numbers.
__________________________
Test 1
With everything plugged in (minus the above) (from memory so these may be fudged some but the issue is the big VDC drop.
Battery changed
Trickle Charger on with 2amp 12vdc setting.


My Key Off voltages is around 13.90
Key On
13.3 at Battery

Left
ow + 11.7
w - 11.5

Right
ow Coil + 11.6
Yb Coil - 11.5


So way too much drop and the below is used to isolate.


__________________________
Test 2
Disconnected the Ignitor Harness and test at each terminal
Key ON
Battery 13.5
COILS

Left
w 13.5
ow 13.5

Right
Yb 13.5
ow 13.5




HARNESS
W 13.5
Yb 13.2
OW 13.5


__________________________

Test 3
Ignitor Harness Plugged in as well as the remaining tests it's plugged in.
- W and YB (L and R Coil signal wires) disconnected at Coils
Battery 13.2


COILS
Left
w 13.11
ow13.11

Right
yb 13.11
ow 13.11


Harness
OW 13.11

__________________________
Test 4
YB right ONLY connection
YB (Right) connected, W (left) disconnected
To isolate if this was a specific coil I disconnected each independent wire.
Battery 12.63
Note the YB voltage of 1.032.

COILS
Left
w 11..64
ow 11.64

Right
Yb 1.032
ow 11.70








Test 5
W (left ONLY connection.
YB (Right) Disconnected, W (left) Connected
To isolate if this was a specific coil I disconnected each independent wire.


Battery 12.86
Note the W voltage of 1.0

COILS
Left
w 1.0
ow 11.54

Right
Yb 11.56
ow 11.57


Harness
Ow 11.60

[Cipher]

Gosh I know .7 ohms is lowish but shouldn't there be infinite resistance from those points to ground?

Anyhoo ebay is likely replete with the whole module you need on the handlebar

[TheAlt]

Gosh I know .7 ohms is lowish but shouldn't there be infinite resistance from those points to ground?

Anyhoo ebay is likely replete with the whole module you need on the handlebar

I think the stator is fine
Limit between each terminal to another terminal has a range of that is within 0.5 to 2.0 Ohms
Ideally you want sameness if I'm not mistaken.
Stator Papers has some info on page 2. http://www.thegsresources.com/statorpapers2.php
O.L is infinite resistance. so it's a open load.

I suspect the Ignitor.
Since the voltage is good till either signal wire for left or right coil is hooked up. Hard to believe both coils would fault the same way, but will wait till some experts chime in on what their thoughts are.
Still need to to the ignitor test from Clymers since I don't have the official Service Manual.

Provided it is the ignitor, I may opt to replace it with a Dyna system. Saw a few using 400 systems to dump the factory ignition and ignitor assembly. Maybe someone here has done the same.

Alt

[Gorminrider]

A link for the Real shop manual is HERE compliments of VGPlay:

https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?258200-GS450-Official-Service-Manual-PDF

[Gorminrider]

Otherwise, be aware that:
The ignitor works by interrupting the coil circuit. When the signal generator produces a small pulse, the ignitor interrupts the coils' supply THIS produces the spark. Very similar to points. Not a "CDI".
So, the ignitor is "in series" circuit with the coils therefore the coils will never have a vd equalling BAT. because the ignitor is another resistance in the same circuit.

the signal generators are very important. No spark without them. The ignitors ground wire and the kill switch are also very important.(add: and the spark plug caps..there's stuff up inside of them)


-Most multimeters testing for low resistance need to be "zeroed". Cross the leads, note what meter says. Subtract this from any low resistance reading.
-The stator has nothing to do with ignition. However, when the bike is running, the stator supplies the power. IDEALLY the battery is only there to start the bike.

[pdqford]

+1 What Gorminrider points out:

There is no voltage drop if current is not flowing in the circuit being tested.

(I don’t know exactly what happens inside the ignitor box, but with it disconnected I suspect you are measuring open circuit voltage as opposed to voltage drop.)

What bike are we discussing?

[TheAlt]

1982 GS450A

Correct I don't expect a voltage drop when the offender is removed.
Though the signal wires were only removed to see if the drop was external of the starting system which seems something between bat - Ignitor - coil signal wires. appears to be the area.
.
Since no test was done with cranking the bike over the stator would not be a factor in the drop unless there was some odd ground short, but I supplied it's number to show I'm not shorting out for the stator.

I too would not expect BAT voltage at the coils + - connections, but we seem to have a big drop. Too low (per previous replies) to allow spark at the plugs.

All tests done with plug caps and plugs on the bike and sparkplugs grounded or near enough to the cylinder head.

[Gorminrider]

Recap of the issue
Still NO spark either side including when releasing the starter button which as previously posted worked till I cleaned every terminal

Keep it simple. If it worked before you "cleaned every terminal" I'd carefully revisit that before wanking coil voltages....

otherwise, simple bench tests are applying a touch of power to a coil alone. It will spark when power is removed. The Black box is more difficult. there's a test that duplicates the signal generator's short signal with a flashlight battery but both are reliable components and given correct connections, don't commonly fail without real abuse on these bikes.

Charge the battery up. check for spark with the motor spinning. It should spark. Sparks don't have to light the room like an arc light to work. If you see any, it'll probably start the bike given fuel and compression.

Your coils are intended to work even while the starter motor is severely loading the puny battery. They work well enough at voltages below "ideals".

(though I like grimly's point which might be helping when the battery is short of breath. ...Anyways, it's not good to run the starter too long. Short bursts will supply the Grimly Effect and a short rest is a good thing between spins too.

[TheAlt]

Keep it simple. If it worked before you "cleaned every terminal" I'd carefully revisit that before wanking coil voltages....

otherwise, simple bench tests are applying a touch of power to a coil alone. It will spark when power is removed. The Black box is more difficult. there's a test that duplicates the signal generator's short signal with a flashlight battery but both are reliable components and given correct connections, don't commonly fail without real abuse on these bikes.

Charge the battery up. check for spark with the motor spinning. It should spark. Sparks don't have to light the room like an arc light to work. If you see any, it'll probably start the bike given fuel and compression.

Your coils are intended to work even while the starter motor is severely loading the puny battery. They work well enough at voltages below "ideals".

(though I like grimly's point which might be helping when the battery is short of breath. ...Anyways, it's not good to run the starter too long. Short bursts will supply the Grimly Effect and a short rest is a good thing between spins too.

Okay, I'm mentally prepping myself for another crack a this just to see if the coils will spark
Based on the above benchtest comment I think this will work,

Think I will leave the coils on the bike.
Test 1 at a time,
Pull the sparkplugs out of the head but connect it to the cap / coil combo being tested and lay them on the head so they have a good ground.
Disconnect the signal wires, + and - side
Apply 12vdc to the + terminal on the coil and then pull the power lead off. (tapping it with 12vdc)
The expectation is that it should spark each time I pull off the power source.

FYI I don't run the starter long. If it won't spark the first few seconds, I see no point in cranking.
Also note. pretty good with most motors (cars, small engines, airplanes) so I'm more than familiar what the spark should look like or feel like if I'm on the business end, so there is no question of no spark on this bike, but I will admit, this is making me feel like I need some crayons.

Alt

[pdqford]

Disconnect the signal wires, + and - side
Apply 12vdc to the + terminal on the coil and then pull the power lead off. (tapping it with 12vdc)
The expectation is that it should spark each time I pull off the power source.
Alt

Nothing is going to happen!
Applying 12v to the Plus terminal is not going to charge up the coil as no current will flow through the coil if the ground side isn’t, um, grounded.

I’d just connect 12v to the positive side, and when you want the coil to charge up, connect a grounded wire to the ground side of the coil, and when you want the coil to throw a spark, release the ground.

[Gorminrider]

sure as above per pqford:This being a 450 I expect it has two coils, one per plug, so just disconnect the leads from the coils and test each coil while attached to the bike ...take a positive to where the orange white would be and a ground wire to the other. You just need a momentary connection .. without a lot of gas fumes around ...

This'll keep the ignitor box out of the circuit. The spark plug need be really well grounded to engine and so too the battery groundstrap connected to the bike.

[tobaccorancher]

I may have missed this, but have you measured the impedance on your spark plug caps (and across the secondary of the coils). In your initial post you mentioned a yellow spark. Yellow is not a good color for a spark, that is a low energy spark. A good spark should be almost white. Under compression a weak spark does not have enough energy to ignite. The reason I mention this is because I just pulled my spark plug caps and mine are measuring between 500K and open circuit. Hope this is not redundant, but didn't see this in the thread.

[TheAlt]

I've returned again to this project.
Still no spark
Here' were my tests today. Note I'm including the BAT voltage at the start of each test so it's clear what it was at the time I did the test.
All lights are disconnected
Any bulbs removed
All terminals cleaned and dialectic grease applied.

Side stand Switch is Open in either position so it's bad, but it was bypassed for testing as well.

Still no spark on cranking.
No spark when releasing starter button.
Spark plugs resting on cylinder heads

First Test
Directly power coils with + and Neg connected. Using a 12vd charger direct to the + terminal
Both coils generate a good spark.

Seems the coils are doing their job.


Second test Voltage drop
12.18vdc at battery
+ Left coil 10.62 Ign On (not cranking)
9.33vdc (cranking)
11.20 at Solenoid (cranking)

So I still have a big drop here


Disconnected the ECU to check voltage at HARNESS side
Ignition ON. No cranking.

Bat voltage 12.35
Orange White 12.34
White 12.34
Black Yellow 12.34


Connected the ECU (Ign ON no cranking)
Bat Voltage. 12.09
Orange White 10.94
White 8.94
Black Yellow 9.20

Looking at the above, seems my drop is through the ECU. Which I suspect is the issue and may opt for a Dynatec mod unless someone happens to be in the Austin area to test a ECU

Open for other ideas of course.

Thanks
Alt

[pdqford]

Disconnected the ECU to check voltage at HARNESS side
Ignition ON. No cranking.

Bat voltage 12.35
Orange White 12.34
White 12.34
Black Yellow 12.34

WITH THE IGNITION MODULE DISCONNECTED CURRENT WILL NOT BE FLOWING THROUGH THE PRIMARY SIDE OF THE COILS AND THUS THERE IS NO VOLTAGE DROP. THE VOLTAGE YOU ARE READING IS OPEN CIRCUIT VOLTAGE.


Connected the ECU (Ign ON no cranking)
Bat Voltage. 12.09
Orange White 10.94
White 8.94
Black Yellow 9.20

WITH THE IGNITION MODULE CONNECTED, IT IS PROVIDING A GROUND FOR THE PRIMARY SIDE OF THE IGNITION COILS AND THUS CURRENT IS FLOWING THROUGH THE COIL PRIMARYS. THE COIL PRIMARYS WILL CONSUME VOLTAGE, AS WILL THE IGNITION SWITCH, KILL SWITCH, ETC. HAVE YOU DISASSEMBLED AND CLEANED THE CONTACTS INSIDE THE IGNITION SWITCH AND THE KILL SWITCH?



Thanks
Alt

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