Checking Valve Clearances: Near Disaster?

[ekabil]

Hi,
Today I meant to check the valves and ended up having to take off the airbox, carbs, and cam chain tensioner. I've never done any of these things before on any bike.

I wanted to check the valves because I haven't since I've had the bike (four months) and it's had trouble starting. So I took off the fuel tank,disconnected spark plug wires and taped em up, took off the breather cover and the valve cover. So far so good.

Then when I checked valve clearances, they were all very tight. My smalled feeler gauge is .04mm and it didn't fit in any of them. So I went around and removed all of the shims and wrote down what they were (first mistake, turning engine over with shims out)

Then I took the smallest shim (2.55) and put it in the valve that used to have the biggest shim (2.70x). Still, my .04mm guage wouldn't fit in there. In the process of getting the shim seated, I turned the engine over twice (second mistake - none of the shims except one were in place).

Luckily I called someone to make sure I was measuring right (I was) because it seemed odd that even with the smallest shim the loosest valve wasn't loose enough. When I told him how I had been measuring them he said that turning the engine over without shims in the buckets can ruin the engine. I remember finding little shards of metal in the buckets and wondering why. So, the solution to this was to lift up the cams and put all the shims back, then resume trying smaller shims.

So I took everything off except the cam covers. The covers with four bolts labeled ABCD. They are bolted on so tight! Impact wrench didn't work. Big ratchet didn't work. The only thing that has worked has been a small 10mm wrench, which sucks to apply any force to since its so small. But there are still five or so bolts that just will not budge and I'm starting to round them with the wrench. Maybe I could try an adjustable crescent wrench?

I'm thinking to have it towed to a mechanic to get those covers off and have them clean the valves, make sure theres no metal in there, and put the right shims in. Im out of ways to loosen the bolts. Liquid Wrench helped only a little. Or, is there something else I can do at this point? If I clean the valve buckets really well could I just put shims back in? It seems like I could put shims in the valves accessible now, then turn the engine so that only valves with shims will get compressed by cams. Eventually I would get shims back in without having carved up the cams any more than they already are.

I took all the shims out so I could try and rotate them around and not waste money on shims I wouldn't need. I wish I had known not to turn the engine with them out! This might be something to add to the guide on BikeCliff's site. Or maybe its something everyone but the dummies knows.


Big thanks to Steve for his awesome help

[azr]

All I can say is......wow. I think it's time to put your tools down, step back...wayyyyyyy back and have a beer and think for a bit.

[Sci85]

+1 on that. Keep in mind, if your not making progress, don't keep pushing until you make things worse. call In a buddy to take a look.

Now, after taking a break and thinking it through there should be no reason an impact gun would not break those loose. They are not on that tight. So, that means something is not right. Could be someone used strong locktight on the bolts. Or, are you sure you are turning them the right way? Don't laugh, it happens. Try tapping on the top of the bolt with hammer lightly. Try using the right size 6 point socket with a cheater bar over the socket wrench shaft for leverage.

[ekabil]

an impact gun uses compressed air right? i dont have one of those. just the big cylinder impact wrench from z1. whats a cheater bar?

I did quit once I couldnt get those bolts off. I was afraid I would throw a hammer at it

I put the covers back on and all, and Im gonna sleep on it. I was gonna take the carbs off anyway next weekend, but now I have all week to learn how to dissasemble and reassemble them. Its frustrating only because my family only has one car and it makes everything difficult. But Charleston has a decent bus system. Is anyone near me (Charleston, SC area) who would like to take a look at it? How can I tell if I already ruined the cam lobes? A couple of them are a bit rough around the top edge but nothing too drastic.

[JEEPRUSTY]

The 5 remaining bolts are being held securely in place due to the force being exerted on the cams. I assume you will need to perform anther bit of rotation in order to ensure there is no pressure.

[tkent02]

I'm guessing you didn't read the part in the manual about the vice grips?

[Nessism]

Those bolts will break off if you use too much force. You might want to get a propane torch and heat them before trying to force them out.

[Sci85]

A cheater bar is a long bar, usually 48" or so in length, that goes over the socket wrench to give you a huge amount a leverage and will easily break free hard to remove bolts (as well as snapping them in half!). Also called breaker bars. I agree with Nessism that heating and cooling cycles will help break free a stubborn bolt. But, I've not seen cam bolts so stuck that they would not come off with a simple socket wrench. Was the cover off and the bike stored outside? I just don't see why they are not coming off. Something just seems off. Did you make sure and put the cam in the right position before loosening the bolt on each lobe as jeeprusty suggested? Do you have the service manual? Pics are always a good suggestion. Helps everyone see things you might not mention in the post.

[Allie]

YIKES! You have the right idea in wanting to get all the metal out and be sure of it. Where did the metal come from? Could you be set up for a domino effect of engine wear from gouged parts?

Those bolts shouldn't ever become seized, they are not exposed to any elements and are constantly bathed in oil. Is it possible you got the direction wrong on the impact driver and made them tighter? Easy to do on those... Do not force them. Coax, cajole, coerce, connive, pray and do a rain dance, but don't force them.

[Nessism]

A number of members here have broken cam cap bolts before. Corrosion locks them in place so you must be careful taking them off.

[Allie]

A number of members here have broken cam cap bolts before. Corrosion locks them in place so you must be careful taking them off.

Are you serial? How do they become corroded? lots of sitting in a damp climate?

[ekabil]

ah I did not know that cam position had anything to do with it. Well isnt that a catch - I'm removing the bolts to ensure the cams don't get messed up my turning the engine over...by turning the engine over :P

Ill look in the manual and see what it says about it. Some of them kinda popped and then turned very freely. But thank you jeeprusty for the good info

on a very positive note, I pulled one of the carbs apart and the inside was just spotless. Completely spotless. I dont think I am going to dip them, but I will take them all apart and replace the o-rings and such since I already have them. And spray the passages with carb cleaner, and replace the gaskets. At one point I thought there was gas in the oil, and although the problem seems to have fixed itself, I will inspect the float needles in all of them. Thanks for your help guys

Edit: WOW just looked at shim prices at Z1, and they are 6 bucks apiece! I am definitely gonna check out the shim club , since I need to replace all of the shims

[7981GS]

Perhaps someone is near you and can help.
City that you are near?

Eric

[ekabil]

tkent02, what is there in the manual about vice grips? I didn't see anything about it. All it says about these bolts is to remove the bolts in opposing pairs.

im in charleston, south carolina

[7981GS]

tkent02, what is there in the manual about vice grips? I didn't see anything about it. All it says about these bolts is to remove the bolts in opposing pairs.

im in charleston, south carolina

It was a bad... "joke".
Use a 6-point socket as mentioned earlier.

Eric