Clutch arm position?

[Guest]

I tried searching on this but didn't find the info I need.

I need to know if there is more than one "right" position for the clutch arm.

I'm working on an '84 GS750EF and yesterday the clutch worked... kinda. I just got it started yesterday afternoon for the first time and it would go into 1st but grind trying to go into 2nd.

I adjusted the clutch cable as per the factory manual but when I was doing this I found a loose ball bearing and by the time I tracked its home down I was ready to call it a night. Today I replaced that ball bearing and a few others that were missing from the .....I don't even know what you call it. The twisting sleeve that the bearings ride in and support the grooved barrel that the clutch arm acts on when you pull the cable. I clean and re greased that whole thing and I THINK put it back just the way it came out...but now I can't get anywhere NEAR the adjustment I need.

How far will I see that adjuster move inwards when I pull the clutch lever if everything is set up right? Or how much of an arc will the grooved barrel transit? Right now it hardly goes in and barely moves inwards.

When looking at the inside of the sprocket cover at the clutch arm I have it set so its at about 9 o'clock with the return spring pulling on it. Both adjusters (on the case and the lever end) are almost full OUT. I tried reinstalling the arm so it would be lower but it seems like the next position is TOO low.

I did take that whole assembly out to clean it and rebuild it at the bench, is it possible I put in upside down? It looks symetrical but I guess the internal grooves might not line up the same both way. I'lll try turning it 180 for now because I'm about out of other ideas.


Mac

[Pete Logan]

You got a picture of that clutch lever the way you have it now, Mac ? I'm having a hard time visualizing it. On mine, there's only one way it can go on and allow adjustment. It's 1030pm here now, but I'll post a pic in the morning if someone else already hasn't.

Thanks,

Pete

[DarkDevil]

Your right, the internal grooves don't line up both ways.

I've been going through the same problem you are. I finally found a setting that works.

My clutch lever is around 9, when pulled it should almost be pointing at where the clutch cable comes in the cover. The internal grooves, as far as i remember, don't change the further up you go. So as long as the arm is moving the same distance it's going to push in the same distance. The trick is the adjustment screw. (part 24 http://tinyurl.com/8qdho)

This is how I adjusted it.
Take all of the slack out of the cable, unscrew the nut that locks the adjustment screw. Screw in the adjustment screw until you feal resistance. Unscrew it about a half turn. Tighten the locking nut. Then, adjust the handlebar end of the cable so that it's where you'd like it. Mines in the middle, to allow for adjustments in either direction. Then tighten the cable from the engine cover end. Unscrew the lockingnut so that you can do it by hand. Then, with the bike in first, if you can get it there without grinding, pull in the clutch, you should be able to stop the back wheel with two fingers. This step is done easiest by leaving your bike running on its center stand, adjusting and clutching with one hand, and trying to stop the wheel with the other.

Please... someone correct me if i'm wrong... because.. its how it did it.. and if i did it wrong.. i'd love to know. But its working for me.

edit: heres a picture of my lever. Yours should be the same.

http://nick.wirelesszero.net/gallery/bike/clutchlever.jpg

[Macmatic]

Pete,


I'll try and get a pic up later... Right now I've got to head out and run some errands... I've been messing with this most of the day... 4:30pm here now.

By the way I may have my terms wrong. What I mean by "Clutch arm" in the level that the cable end attaches to inside the case....just above the front sprocket. Looking at it with the cover in my hand, as if I were inside the trans looking out, the arm is at about 8-9 o'clock.

With the arm in this position and the lever adjuster and adjuster at the case out as far as I can get 'em (like.... 3 threads from falling out) I can see the (term unknown) part that pushes on the clutch shaft move in about 1/8 or 3-4mm. I have not even close to enough feel in the lever.

I'll be back on it in a few hours an post a pic if someone hasn't posted one already.


Oh... I pulled the cover and turned the clutch arm carrier thing 180deg just to make sure it didn't give me a better arm positon the other way.... it didn't. Its held in with what looks like two WOOD screws! I assume it should be with something like a 6mm x 1pitch screw and someone replaced them...but it seems to hold ok so I'll leave it be for now. I can always tap it out later.

/\/\ac

[Pete Logan]

Mines in the middle, to allow for adjustments in either direction.

Confucius he say "If it works, it's right"

I don't bother with leaving space on the control lever adjuster, just do 100 yard test runs till it's good and assume that from there I am only ever going to want to tighten things, but it's a nit difference. Takes two seconds to move the other end anyway.

I think you're probably more right than me

Pete

[Macmatic]

Mother of pearl.......

DarkDevil,

Thanks for the pic. Thats just how mine looks...damn it. What about the inner part? The stamped metal tube that holds the bearing in place? I put it back in the way it came out but the more I work on this bike the less faith I have that anything is "as it should be".

One end has a single tab that folds over and the other end has I think three tabs. Right now the single tab is one the outside when everything is installed. I don't know if this makes a difference or not...as it is not if I turn the level in the dir the cable would this sleeve starts to come out with the barrel....dunno what goes on when its all in place.

I'm going to grab something to eat and try turning that sleeve around afterwards unless I hear different.

I looked on my parts bike and it seems to move about the same distance but the screw and nut adjuster (other side of your pic) is only showing a few threads. I have ten threads showing right now on mine.

/\/\ac

[DarkDevil]

[edit: I guess you responded while I was responding.]

I'll be back on it in a few hours an post a pic if someone hasn't posted one already

heres a picture of my lever. Yours should be the same.
http://nick.wirelesszero.net/gallery...lutchlever.jpg

[Pete Logan]

If you can do it, you might like to try detaching the cable and holding the lever to full out without it (ie try it full in and full out). If the clutch then works, you don't need to go back in. You won't do it by hand. Gripper and a block to stop it coming back works for me.

Pete

[Macmatic]

If you can do it, you might like to try detaching the cable and holding the lever to full out without it (ie try it full in and full out). If the clutch then works, you don't need to go back in. You won't do it by hand. Gripper and a block to stop it coming back works for me.

Pete

Pete,

Not sure exactly what you mean. Are you talking about freeing the cable at the lever end (handbar) and pulling it with pliers or something? I can try that but I'm not sure what it will prove.

Yesterday when I started all this the clutch needed adjusting so I did that by the book but didn't run it afterward. This morning I tore into it to replace the missing ball bearing and thats when the fun started. I didn't pay THAT much attention but as per the book I turned the lever adjuster all the way in and then adjusted with the case adjuster for 4mm of play at the level...so I had plenty of room left for adjustment.

I'm going to check back here after I eat (on the grill now) and then try turning that sleeve around.

/\/\ac

[DarkDevil]

For the record.. and to avoid confusion. The engine end of the cable attaches to what is called a Clutch Push Lever ( part 25 here. http://tinyurl.com/8qdho )

I wouldn't remove the.. for lack of a better word... sheath, which holds all of the bearings in. On mine there is a single tab on the adjustment screw side. The part facing away from the engine.

A loss of any of the bairings will result in a loss in performance. I thought I could get away with using one that had half of its pairing, but it seized up on me while trying to get a proper clutch adjustment. I had to get a second one from a salvaged bike.. cost me 25 bucks. A new one is about 70 after next day shipping and tax.

[Macmatic]

Well I'm going to take it all apart and try again. My Clutch Push Lever looks just like DarkDevils and now that I look closer at the pic in the factory manual I see that the single tab end of the bearing holder IS supposed to be pointing out...so thats OK.

Right now I'm waiting to call a friend of mine who got robber in her apartment last weekend... someone just IM'd me and said her truck had been found...must be something to the story or a very slow news day as this is in a major city... of course her phone is busy...

dial dial dial.
/\/\ac
---
update

%&#*@%! I can't find anything at all. I'm going to read up on the carbs and call it a night. I'm still spewing gas out of a drain or vent line coming from the middle of the carbs and I still have heavy smoke coming from #1 or #2 cyl. Maybe I can work in a compression test tonight......
Tomorrow I'm going to compare it with the parts bike....making sure that clutch is really working....and swap out the cable. All I can think of now is that maybe the case end of the cable wasn't fully in the adjuster when I started all this and thats what was making it work...extra length.
I'll try pulling on the cable at the lever end while I'm at it... maybe the clutch is stuck too! Whee! 8O

[Macmatic]

I wouldn't remove the.. for lack of a better word... sheath, which holds all of the bearings in.
A loss of any of the bairings will result in a loss in performance. I thought I could get away with using one that had half of its pairing, but it seized up on me while trying to get a proper clutch adjustment. I had to get a second one from a salvaged bike.. cost me 25 bucks. A new one is about 70 after next day shipping and tax.

Huh. This all started when I took the sprocket cover off to find out where one of those bearings lived. I found it loose under the adjustment access cover when I was doing the initial clutch adjustment.
There were two other balls missing when I got it out so I took the whole thing apart to clean and grease it then replaced all of the bearings. I mic'd a few of the OE ones for size and then went to the bike (pedal) shop down the street for some spares. Total cost? $0.20. But I gave him a buck....the guy saves my butt all the time.

I've gotta say I wouldn't have NOT taken it apart. It clearly would effect shifting and/or clutch feel and I could just feel the grit and drag when I moved it by hand. I'm pretty good at getting things back together the way they came...which is part of why this clutch is starting to PMO.

Thanks for the help guys!
/\/\ac

[Pete Logan]

Mine's an '82, so slightly different - both adjusters are on the cable, whereas your bottom adjuster is on the pivot, but I was trying to say that if you disconnect the cable and can make the clutch work, then you don't need to worry about the problem being inside the casing. If it won't work without the cable, then it is inside the casing.

For some reason I can't access my usb camera right now, but I'll post the pic as soon as I figure that out.

Logically, where the direction of pull changes, the angle should be 90 degrees, like where the cable attaches to the arm.

In the meantime, my clutch lever is 45mm (1.77") long, pivot center to cable attachment center, and the cable end of the lever moves 13mm (1/2") on a full clutch lever pull. My math isn't good enough to work out the angle

Looking at the pic of yours, though, I'm not sure how I would move that thing, either

Pete

[Macmatic]

I'm not clear on exactly how this works yet but I'm wondering if its possible for the clutch to be stuck in such a way that the clutch rod that is acted on by the cable and bell crank could be further inside the case than normal?
This would explain where all of my adjustment went I think.

/\/\ac

[DarkDevil]

I dunno if anyone has linked this yet. But here is an exploited view of a clutch. http://tinyurl.com/8qdho

It really helps me to know what things look like on the inside when I'm working on the outside.