Bowl levels are the same, sooooo.....

[flyingace]

Scud,
This is an old bike. The compression is pretty low and combustion is not going to be crisp like it was when new. I'm not sure pouring over the condition of the plugs is really going to get you anywhere - they may never all look perfect until you rebuild the engine. It's like you're on a spark plug treadmill and can't get off.

You say your bike runs great, and has since the beginning of the thread. Why don't you just enjoy the old girl, and if something goes wrong, at least you'll have a real problem instead of an imaginary one.

Please see the flow diagram in this thread:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/viewtopic.php?t=41590

Ace.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Don't worry about "increasing" the vacuum level(s). You answered a question I had about this. I was wondering (because its happened here before) if you properly/completely plugged the vacuum nipple at #2. If you didn't, you would see an initial low vacuum level when you synched. You would of course increase the vacuum to make it match the others. But in reality you would have too much vacuum once you re-installed the screw. Much higher vacuum would cause a rich mixture.
With such a rich mixture at #2, adjusting the mixture screw correctly isn't possible. I don't know why the mixture screw for #3, which looks lean, is doing the same thing. If the carb is in the condition you say it is, it makes no sense.
As for raising a stock jet needle, many members shim the needle up by installing washer(s). If your bike is a U.S. model, the stock needle isn't adjustable. If you had an adjustable needle, you would see 5-6 grooves near the top and a removable e-clip in one of those grooves.
Obviously, your plug reads have changed with the latest work done. I don't know why #2 has changed so much. The leaky petcock diaphragm is a possibility for sure.
Your 1/2 throttle reads are lean, UNLESS the pics are not showing us what the plugs really look like. We went through this to a lesser extent, with Hoomgars plugs at one point. If they are truly white/lean, then you should raise the needles.
Its easy for some to say just ride the bike, and you may just end up doing exactly that. You can only try so much. Common sense and any basic knowledge of how an engine works will tell you the bike isn't running as it should, even if you are reasonably happy with it. The plugs show you what the cylinders are doing. You've stayed with this because you know somethings wrong.
I think its amazing that some think the problem isn't real or whatever. Lean is lean. Rich is rich. A black plug is acceptable? White also? You would like to fix this. This thread is about trying to fix it, not closing your eyes to whats happening and quit on it. Easy to do when its not your bike.
At least you've tried. Sure, there's many other possibilities and some are not common occurences. It can also get very expensive trying to eliminate any possibility one by one.
I would still, right or wrong, inspect all the parts, check that petcock, check synch, etc. Something happened to make #2 go dark. If the plugs are nearly white at 1/3 to 1/2 throttle, then the needles need to be raised.

[flyingace]

Scud,
Go ahead and keep your bike in the garage. That's where some would have you keep it until hell freezes over.

[gsBert]

i agree with flying ace: keep it garaged, NOT! what a jerky sort of statement to make, but i see his point, if it fewel sright, ride it...

however, i think yu need to raise your needles on all 4 cylinders and figure out why #2 is running rich all of a sudden.

let me repeat myself here: YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SOOT ON THE THREADS. my guess is plug 2 isnt screwed in all the way or cross threaded (you couldnt have cross threaded it could you?) so make sure all the threads are clean, and make sure its in right (i actually use anti-seize on my plugs as lube after brushing everything off (plug and head)), sure it smokes a bit at first but then its ok after like 20 seconds...

so if you dont have clips on your needles, use small washers to raise them a bit, 1/16 of an inch at a time.

also make sure no extra fuel is getting into #2 (petcock?)

redo the plug wire swap (to make sure #2 is firing allright, swap it (the wire) with the other plug from the same coil)

if 2 is still rich, look into the petcock or the carb, but i dont see it being the carb...

did you install the larger mains yet? if yes, raise those needles...

also make sure the top of your slides are getting athmospheric pressure (you didnt block the intake to them with cheap pods did you?)

i bench synch my carbs with a vacuum cleaner, just be careful because your engine will pulse vacuum and the cleaner will be constant (engine suction also varies, cleaner will be constant unless you install a rheostat on the 120v outlet), but it lets you see what happens, ie: how your slides move in relation to throttle... plug those vacuum nipples dude! make sure all 4 slides behave the same...

if you want to pay for the shipping, send me your carbs, ill send you mine (i got a very functional 750) this will forever remove the "is it the carbs" question...

i just wish you were near me, we'd swap parts in meh garage and find out real fast whats wrong...

man, i love carbs! my next bike will be fuel injected....

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Scud,
Go ahead and keep your bike in the garage. That's where some would have you keep it until hell freezes over.

Jeez! :roll: Why don't you take it personal?
Scud is trying to figure out a problem that he himself brought up. He brought it up because he knows this shouldn't be happening.
He's made a good effort trying to fix it. It may get fixed, it may not. What to do is his decision.
He asked for help on fixing it. Not opinions on how to live with it.
Don't get sensitive when faced with facts or accuse others of giving advice for the purpose of keeping a guy off his bike.
I think much of my advice at this site has helped KEEP a lot of guys RIDING their bikes. 8)

[Hoomgar]

Scud,
Go ahead and keep your bike in the garage. That's where some would have you keep it until hell freezes over.

Jeez! :roll: Why don't you take it personal?
Scud is trying to figure out a problem that he himself brought up. He brought it up because he knows this shouldn't be happening.
He's made a good effort trying to fix it. It may get fixed, it may not. What to do is his decision.
He asked for help on fixing it. Not opinions on how to live with it.
Don't get sensitive when faced with facts or accuse others of giving advice for the purpose of keeping a guy off his bike.
I think much of my advice at this site has helped KEEP a lot of guys RIDING their bikes. 8)

What he said. If you don't have something constructive to contribute that may help solve the issue (which is what scud has aksed for) then please just stay out of the thread dood. Nothing personal, just don't comment if your going to stir shlt up. No one likes that. Please be respectful and don't do it Ace.

Thanks man.

[Scud]

Hi guys, just back from another short business trip.

Hey Ace.......why don't you stop chiming in on this post, there are plenty of qualified folks who are trying to help me. I look at who has a good track record in this forum for constructive and reasonable criticism and you do not.

I am sure that everyone will now be in a rush to help you when you really need it.

I will get back to the rest of you guys that ARE helping when I can.

Scud

[Scud]

Keith - I will check the petcock, I can say that I have had the tank off several times while trying to fix this problem and no gas leaks from it when I remove it (it is vacuum operated). Would this mean that the diaphragm is alright?

My bike is stock so the needles are non-adjustable. How exactly do you raise the needles then, I mean, how and where do you place the washers.

Yea, the mixture screw has no effect on RPM when I turn either two or three carb in and out from seated to four turns out.

gsbert - No, the threads are not cross threaded, but I will tighten a little more, I worry about stripping threads. When the plugs are new I know it kinda feels like they are going to strip while the crush washer crushes..anti seize.. like thread locker blue (serviceable)?

I will swap coil leads and see what happens.

I did install the larger mains they are 120.

Slides...atmospheric pressure..? huh.?? that is a new one..hmmm.. I do not have pods, I have the orginal stock airbox. What do you mean by top of slides getting atmospheric pressure?

Vacuum cleaner synch...hmm.. not sure I am up to that one. I may very well wind up sending you my carbs this winter if this keeps up. Thanks for the offer.

Thanks guys, I am back to her today sometime...hopefully.

Scud

[KEITH KRAUSE]

I agree with the original poster who mentioned the petcock could leak fuel into the vacuum line and cause #2 to be rich. This is fairly common. It's worth a check. One way to find out fast is to plug the vacuum port at #2 tight, then run the bike on prime. The dark plug would then lighten up very quickly if the petcock is a problem. However, the timing of this suddenly rich plug at #2 makes me think its something you did while you last worked on it. I mean, all your plugs looked lean, at least on the jet needle circuit, with #1 even more lean if I remember right? Now you have this dark plug problem added to things after you worked on it. :?
As for raising the needles, I hoped the pipe wouldn't make this necessary with the intake still stock. But it was lean before, correct? The pipe would certainly make things at least a little leaner. Sorry, because this topic is long, it makes it hard to remember whats been discussed.
I've never used shims to raise a jet needle. I've always used jet kits and their needles. But the shim(s) in this case would go under the needles e-clip. How much to raise is anybodys guess, unless someone here has experience with a situation like yours. I can guess, but I'd really need to see the plugs in person, or you can again describe just how lean they look. I don't think you'd need to raise them more than the equivalent of one full position on an adjustable needle, which would be about .045"? Like I said, if they're really white, the needles may have to be raised more than that. This would be a little unusual though, for just the pipe.
Your mixture screw operation is really strange. Especially when you have two cylinders burning near each end of the lean-to-rich spectrum but both mixture screws have little or no effect. K&N's website states if the best/highest rpm is achieved 3/4 turn out or less, you have a lean pilot jet or other lean condition.
Having no effect from seated to four turns out is obviously not right. A mixture screw MUST effect the rpm in a correctly running cylinder. It seems the deeper we get into this, the more things aren't right. This topic started with a lean condition at #1 cylinder and has progessed from there.
Sorry I'm not offering more help, but things aren't making sense.
Maybe we can re-list whats been checked off as a possible problem...briefly describe the performance as it sits now...another 1/3 and minimal throttle position plug reads would be nice...and then we can try to focus on what remaining things could cause these reads/performance and if you feel you could have made any mistakes with repair attempts such as the vacuum synch, etc.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

And Ace...I don't like seeing members get into it with each other. A ways back I must have said something that ticked you off and it sounded like you came back at me with a shot. So I said some more things.
I can understand where you're coming from with your input to this topic. Just riding the bike would be the easiest thing for sure, but since Scud keeps coming back for more punishment, you can be sure we'll administer.
All we can do is try. Peace!

[Scud]

Ace...my response was a knee jerk reaction to your 'hell freezes over' remark....well...it is October and soon enough it will freeze over here thus the reason for me to get this problem fixed even more .

I realize this is lengthy post, I will indeed Keith condense all that has happened (hopefully) and all I have done in order to shed some light on the problem at hand.

Bear with me, this may take some time. It is movie night at my house and my 4 and 8 year olds are waiting for me to join them for 'Because of Winn-Dixie'....fear not, I will not indulge or reveal anything with reagrds to the movie......I will be thinking of how to condense my bike problem however. :?

Scud...bring on the punishment. 8)

[DaveDanger]

Good Gawd Awlmighty! I just read this thing from first to last post and my eyes are bleeding! Scud, that last set of plug pics jumped at me and said "Petcock seeping fuel!" A suggestion on the method of bench setting the sync with a vacuum cleaner... I've had to use a shop vac that way before to run a set of aircraft flight instruments to track down a leak, and discovered a way to set that vacuum anywhere you want it. At some point in your hose hookup, insert a length of PVC pipe of appropriate diameter to accept your vac hose at each end, and drill about a dozen 1" diameter holes in the PVC like a flute, (intentional leaks). Turn on the vacuum and you should have very low vacuum at the end. Duct-Tape (Yeah!) up one hole at a time until you have the vacuum "pressure" you desire. Keep that "adapter" and put a personal part number on it as your special shop tool.

[gsBert]

wow! im glad im not the only whacko with a vaccum cleaner here...

my vacuum cleaner has a suction adjuster, but the pvc idea sounds seckseh...

im gonna take my bike for a spin this isntant... (you know the one thats never been jetted right) seems im somewhere between 12:1 and 18:1 on the mixture now, for it runs...

still keeping my fingers crossed for 14.7:1

keep us posted scud... by the way my money is on petcock as well, unless your float bowl is overflowing on #2...

[Scud]

I will indeed try the test where you disconnect the vacuum hose from the petcock and plug the end leading to the number two carb, switch to prime and take a ride. Currently it is raining and threatening snow so I may have to wait a couple of days.

What the heck....what's another $100.00 for a Pingel petcock...

Scud

[gsBert]

oh by the way scud: dont you dare use the blue loctite on your plugs....
what i meant by anti-seize is the cheap grey high-temp grease usually comes in a jar with a brush on the cap....