Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

GS450S tuning - Almost runs good!!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    GS450S tuning - Almost runs good!!

    A (brief!) history: This bike ran suprisingly well when first put back on the road 6mos. ago after at least ten years as a garage queen that was not registered but got started weekly and polished. The engine ran like new, no issues except for a quickly resolved idling problem. The bike had some gauzy white cotton-candy-like material stuffed in the stock airbox in place of the stock oiled-foam filter along with a couple of small blocks of very porous hard foam that seem to be there to provide a little restriction to the airflow as this white stuff is almost like running no filter. It and the blocks were dry, no oil whatsoever, and clean as a whistle. I left it alone and rode it. 3500 miles later the bike was still running great. I had done a few things like repair the charging system, tires, brakes, oil changes, camchain tensioner, but the motor was still running very well, smooth power from 3k to 8k, my self-imposed redline, without any "driveability" issues, misfiring, or flat spots in the power curve.

    The problem started when I replaced that funky air filter with a stock pre-oiled foam filter. I ignorantly stuck it in there without removing the excess oil. The bike sounded strangled, didn't have the low to midrange torque it had before and misfired at 60-65mph (5500-6000rpm in 6th gear) at 1/3 to 2/3 throttle openings. I immediately put the old filter back in but the problem didn't go away. The plugs weren't fouled, tan in color, but I replaced them anyway. That did nothing. I tore the carbs partially down (bowls, floats, jets and diaphrams out but carbs not separated) and cleaned the jets and slides and adjusted the float levels to spec. They were way high, the floats were hitting the top of the bowl, indicating a rich condition (?), but there were no gas leaks. Jets are stock 115 and 17.5. Diaphrams were good, the pinholes in the jets were partially clogged but are clean now. Back together and there is much improvement but there is still a problem at 1/3 to 2/3 throttle openings and only at revs from 5k to 7k in any gear. I did not remove the needles from the slides, didn't have a pair of circlip pliers that would reach that far into the slides. The previous owner noted in the manual that he had removed the spacers under the needles. That would have gotten rid of the EPA-lean factory setting. He had also noted that he went to 117.5 main jets but must have gone back to stock 115's at some point. One other thing, when I changed the plugs I noticed that the spark was white and weak instead of blue and fat, but it has always been that way - the plugs were changed and spark was checked earlier when all was well - so even though that problem needs fixing, I don't think it's the source of this current problem. But what do I know? I can cruise the bike around town keeping revs under 5k and roll the throttle on and off or hold it at any position and the motor just sounds happy and the low to mid-range torque is there. I can do a drag strip imitation and rev the bike out to 8k up through the gears and do 0-70mph in under 10 seconds (1st thu 4th gear). There's a slight misfire/hesitation at around 6-6.5k but I can rev right through it and power from 7k on up is strong like before. What I cannot do and want to do is cruise at a constant 60-75mph at half throttle. It doesn't misfire but power is on/off/on/off. If I twist it open past 2/3 power comes back on and I accelerate. If I roll off slowly the bike does the rocking horse on/off/on with the power thing that is getting my goat. If I close the throttle completely and quickly there's no surging, just normal engine braking. I can't go on any long trips with the bike like this, dadgummit. One other thing, now that the new air filter is drier than before it can be used in place of the funky white filter with little difference in performance. The white stuff makes the intake sound ballsier, the stock filter muffles it a little but performance is very close to the same.

    So what do I do now? Tear down the carbs again? Separate them and dip them? I sprayed aerosol carb cleaner through the passageways and am reasonably sure all they are all clean and free-flowing. I don't have a carb balancing tool. The slides close at the same rate of speed when pushed up and released and you can hear the air escaping when they drop. The butterflies snap shut at exactly the same time, the clicks are in unison. I didn't think they needed messing with. I'm an "if it ain't broke..." guy whenever possible. I put homemade thin paper gaskets under the intake boot o-rings to help them seal better until replacements arrive. I don't think they are leaking, the bike runs too well at small and large throttle openings. Should I chase the ignition problem first. Could the coils be cutting out at those revs (5k-7k)? It doesn't seem like a misfire, more of a lean running or fuel starvation issue. The one thing I didn't check is the needles. How do you get that circlip out without a special tool? Would lifting them some more help?

    #2
    You said:
    The previous owner noted in the manual that he had removed the spacers under the needles.
    That alone could explain the problem you're having. That will make the needles lower, which will make the bike leaner (not richer).
    On my GS450 I had to experiment with the number of washers under the needle until the bike would run without hesttation at all throttle positions.
    It is definitely true that what works very nicely for one throttle position will not necessarily work well for other throttle positions.
    Also, you may need to experiment with the mixture screw setting (you'll have to drill out the caps, carefully). This can definitely affect "cruise" throttle position which is typically far from wide-open-throttle (especially in 6th gear of the GS450).
    I know you've stated that you're pretty sure you've got no air leaks, but it's typically the very tiny air leaks that can cause exactly what you describe. Leaks at the air box lid and at the boots that connect the airbox to the carbs are very often overlooked. My bike ran significantly better after sealing tiny leaks at those locations.

    Also, the only way I was able to get those circlips out was with a long, thin needle nose plier.

    The bottom line is that it took me weeks of riding/tuning experimentation to eliminiate hesitation at all throttle positions.

    Comment


      #3
      Ok, I'm super doubtful that the coils would be cutting out at a certain RPM. Coils are actually fairly simple in thier mechanics. Either they are broke, or they aren't.

      The two most challenging things for a bike to do are idle, and run wide open. If those two circuits are operating properly, I'd have to put my money on your issue being a jetting problem. Is the exhaust a stock system? Have you attempted to get any plug reads at the point in the throttle where you are having a problem?

      As for a circlip tool, buy a cheap pair of the smallest snap ring pliers you can find- I like the kind that have a little thumbscrew to seperate two halfs and assemble back either to open or close. Then take them to a bench grinder and grind off as much from the sides as you can. Voila, nice small, skinny snap ring pliers. Lifting the slide itself won't help you get them out.
      Currently bikeless
      '81 GS 1100EX - "Peace, by superior fire power."
      '06 FZ1000 - "What we are dealing with here, is a COMPLETE lack of respect for the law."

      I ride, therefore I am.... constantly buying new tires.

      "Tell me what kind of an accident you are going to have, and I will tell you which helmet to wear." - Harry Hurt

      Comment


        #4
        getting closer

        Tonight I put the (much drier) pre-oiled filter back in and set the pilot screws at 1 1/2 turns out instead of the 2 1/2 I used before to get a good idle. Performance got a little better and seemed to improve with miles (30). Idle still good (1100rpm) with a little more throttle stop screw. This bike will actually idle without choke when stone cold at 60 F or higher. It also pulls strong up to and past 8k when wide open. It's when I'm trying to sit on 65-70mph at a steady 1/3 to half throttle that the bike doesn't run right. Seems fuel starved or running lean.

        The bike has stock exhausts in great shape, stock airbox & filter (now) and stock jets - 115 and 17.5. The boots between carb and engine are in good shape and sealed well. The boots between carb and airbox are not great but clamped nice and tight. The airbox lid has the scoop and inlet. I don't understand how a little leak around the edge of that would affect anything but the foam there has seen better days on this bike.

        Are these GS450's affected by turbulence from the vent tubes like some fourbangers I've read about? Will check other posts for that.

        Haven't done the plug chop tests yet. Juggling a hot plug at the side of the road - sounds like fun to me... will find an empty side street for that.

        Adding spacers or washers to the needle lifts it and richens the mix - Got it - thanks! That's what will get tried next. I have the circlip pliers but no bench grinder. How about a hacksaw and Dremel? Looks like the diaphram covers and slides can be removed without pulling the carbs again. That is a bit of a wrestling match but having done it twice now it's gotten easier.

        Thanks for the tips! Will keep you posted...

        Comment


          #5
          Tore the carbs down again in an attempt to lift the needles. Took my Dremel to my circlip pliers and was able to disassemble the slides. On these Mikuni's there's only one slot for a C-clip and the spacer sat on top of the needle, lowering it, according to the FSM diagram. The PO did indeed remove these spacers, lifting the needle as far as possible without modifying any of the slide parts. So, long story short, the only way to richen up the 1/3 to 2/3 throttle range without mods is to adjust the float levels. The FSM specifies a float height of 24mm +/- 1mm (with gasket installed), so there's where I went. It's a little tricky because you have to hold the float where it is just touching the needle valve without compressing the little spring loaded plunger, then measure. I went with a float height of 22-23mm and that helped quite a lot. Didn't eliminate the symptom completely but made the bike run a LOT cooler at 65-70mph (225F vs. 245F) and made me able to use the cruise control/throttle-lock without feeeling like I was on a rocking horse. Went for a 40 mile freeway cruise and felt like I may be able to take a long trip, now that my vacation time is gone. Murphy's Law. Next project, getting that banana seat to be a little more comfy...

          Comment

          Working...
          X