GS wiring question

[mcconnell]

Amp, I agree that you have to work within the capacity of the system. You wouldn't want to mount a 1,000 watt searchlight on the luggage rack and try to operate it.

What I'm getting to is that I wouldn't avoid putting electrical accessories on the system thinking that by doing so it would hurt the system (again, within reason). Remember, this electrical enery is produced whether you use it or not, so there is no extra load put on the charging system by adding accessories. If anything, using up the excess electrical energy anywhere besides the R/R would keep the R/R cooler and thus may allow it to last longer. I've never found the charging system to be 'wimpy' (not very strong), only unreliable, until I went to Electrex.

[Hap Call]

...this electrical enery is produced whether you use it or not, so there is no extra load put on the charging system by adding accessories. If anything, using up the excess electrical energy anywhere besides the R/R would keep the R/R cooler and thus may allow it to last longer...

I see what you are trying to say but there are a couple of things that are not exactly correct in your assumptions. First, the electrical energy is not produced whether you need it or not. Remember, that there are two different ways to make a magnet, one is with permanent magnets (like the ones on the rotor), and the other is when you have a potential through a wound coil (like the coils in your stator). You have two electro-magnetic fields that are operating within your charging system, one fixed (the perm magnets) and one that changes due to the voltage level of the system (the wound coils of the stator). As the system voltage begins to rise due to positive voltage, the electro-magnetic field of the coils begins to rise until both field are at the same potential and the coils become magnetically "saturated". When this occurs there is no delta between the two fields so no current is produced.

At this point no current is being pulled to the battery until a load (lights, accessories, any electrical demand) is placed on the battery

Current is what causes heat in an electrical system, not potential. When you add additional stuff that pulls current then you add additional heat to the system. The more current you pull through the R/R and stator windings, the more heat produced, the faster the breakdown of both insulation systems and depletion layers in semi-conductors (transistors).

This is a very basic description of electro-magnetic fields...you get into stuff like electric flux, flux density, Coulomb's and Gauss's laws...stuff that requires a good understanding of integral and differential calculus and some vector analysis. The basic statement is that no net energy is exchanged if a charge is moved about a closed path, returning to its initial position. This occurs when two magnetic fields are at the same strength.

My head hurts, I need to stop now. :?

Hap

[Clone]

Let's revisit the idea of putting a cpu fan on the r/r, that keeps the temperature down there. So it should last longer. Right? Then about the idea of adding more load, how would that help keep [size=18]WHAT?[/size] :? I understand what you said, but I am not an electrical guy, if it is mechanical, has moving parts to remove and MAKE BETTER (you know "If it ain't broke I can probably still fix it."). But man it is hard to remove and improve those electrons.

[Clone]

ok, I got you Hap, you were writing while I was trying to understand. Now I do. More draw/load=more heat in the stator and the r/r. 8) What about the cpu fan? I don't think they draw a lot. What would keep the stator cooler? :? I can't turn off the light, no switch. So I can't reduce the load, the only increase would be: brake light, high beam and signal light operation. Do their operation create that much more heat? I see guys with two halogen lights mounted on their case guards, that is an increased load. 8O

[Hap Call]

ok, I got you Hap, you were writing while I was trying to understand. Now I do. More draw/load=more heat in the stator and the r/r. 8) What about the cpu fan? I don't think they draw a lot. What would keep the stator cooler? :? I can't turn off the light, no switch. So I can't reduce the load, the only increase would be: brake light, high beam and signal light operation. Do their operation create that much more heat? I see guys with two halogen lights mounted on their case guards, that is an increased load. 8O

That is good thinking...keeping stuff cool is the way to go. A CPU fan may be an excellent way to go. The new Electrex stuff will also handle the heat MUCH better and can probably handle additional load. The size of the Electrex R/R is much larger than the stock unit giving it more cooling area and the electronics on the inside have got to be better than the old stuff. If you have a motor that appears to run hot, the addition of an oil cooler will help both the motor and the stator live a longer more productive life!

I obviously like the Electrex stuff...I do not like their explanation on why the old stuff fails.

Looking back on my previous explanation I think I did a poor job of explaining it...I apologize!


Hap

[mcconnell]

Hap, I did a test on the R/R using an IR pyrometer. I rode and measured the temperature of the R/R, pulled both lighting fuses, rode and measured the temperature again. Though the numbers were very close, I believe you are correct that the unit gets hotter with more electrical load. Oops. I was under the incorrect assumption this was a shunt regulator instead of a series type. Thanx for straightening me out.

[kz]

Hap, have some thoughts to the topic?

If I understood the GS charging system right the thoughts behind the design are:

1. Design of generator.

Use of permanent rotor magnet instead of DC-feeded rotor with coil, advantages is easier rotor design, no brushes and easier R/R unit design, disadvantages is no regulating possibility of the rotor field.

Putting a heat sink on the R/R unit solves the problem with non-regulatable rotor field and we just "burn the extra energy up" in the R/R unit.

2. As an extra improvement too this design, the thought must have been that if the light is not turned on, the third phase is disconnected.

This would cause that the voltage in the third coil rise, and as long as the insulation in the coil can stand that, there would not be any additional heat, no current??

The advantages of this design is that you can design the R/R unit "smaller" because the R/R would have to take much more heat then the light was out if the third phase was connected to the R/R all the time.

Do you think this make sense?

[kz]

BTW:

On my GS1150 1984 all three phases are connected directly (stock) to the R/R unit, as you normally would like to have it.

[Hap Call]

Hap, have some thoughts to the topic?

If I understood the GS charging system right the thoughts behind the design are:

1. Design of generator.

Use of permanent rotor magnet instead of DC-feeded rotor with coil, advantages is easier rotor design, no brushes and easier R/R unit design, disadvantages is no regulating possibility of the rotor field.

Putting a heat sink on the R/R unit solves the problem with non-regulatable rotor field and we just "burn the extra energy up" in the R/R unit.

2. As an extra improvement too this design, the thought must have been that if the light is not turned on, the third phase is disconnected.

This would cause that the voltage in the third coil rise, and as long as the insulation in the coil can stand that, there would not be any additional heat, no current??

The advantages of this design is that you can design the R/R unit "smaller" because the R/R would have to take much more heat then the light was out if the third phase was connected to the R/R all the time.

Do you think this make sense?

What I am trying to say is that there is no extra energy to burn up...When the R/R senses that the voltage level at the battery is at a suitable level it opens a transistor "switch". This stops any current from flowing. To produce power you need two things electrically - Voltage and current. With an open circuit you cannot have current so you will not have power. The stator will have the windings magnetically saturate and reach a flux level equal to the magnets' flux level. At that point no power is produced. This saturation is the same as inrush current on a motor or a transformer.

Does that make sense?
Hap

[Anonymous]

Mcconnel is correct!!

Mcconnel is absolutly correct about adding more accesories,, It actually makes the regulator's job easier! and the rectifier and stator will never know how much load is out there on the bike,, If I was better at drafting I'd draw a diagram of how the system works in simple terms,, (I still might and scan it) But yes,, the electrex stuff is much better than stock,, and Hap you are right, The electrex stator puts out 15-20% electricity than the stock one,, (about 50 watts equal to your average headlight) and the regulator/rectifier eliminats about 10 feet of undersized wire and as well as 2 20 year old switches..

[Anonymous]

Where

Ok guys ref. my post about blowing headlights where can I get an Electrex R/R

[Bill + Karen]

Re: Where

Ok guys ref. my post about blowing headlights where can I get an Electrex R/R

I think there is a link on the main page, them being our sponser of all this sillyness and all. Safe Riding, Bill

[TheNose]

What happens when you plug your TV in backwords :P

I don't know about that, but I do know what happens when you put the batteries in backwards in the Energizer Bunny. Don't know if I should put the answer here, so I'll just say it is the opposite of "it keeps going and going and going.........

Terry

[kz]

What I am trying to say is that there is no extra energy to burn up...When the R/R senses that the voltage level at the battery is at a suitable level it opens a transistor "switch". This stops any current from flowing. To produce power you need two things electrically - Voltage and current. With an open circuit you cannot have current so you will not have power. The stator will have the windings magnetically saturate and reach a flux level equal to the magnets' flux level. At that point no power is produced. This saturation is the same as inrush current on a motor or a transformer.

Does that make sense?
Hap

It makes sense to me,

but I have some additional thoughts....

The GS regulator has only six-diode rectifying (no tyristors-rectifying).

Additional, there are three zener-diods connected on the AC-side over a resistor to ground and three tyristors also connected to the AC-side and to ground, the gate of the tyristor is connected between the Zener and the resistor.

So I think, if the Voltage is to high, the Zeners opens the gates on the tyristors, which shortens the power to ground and back to the alternator over three of the diods (negative side).

This design "burns" power in the regulator, but if one of the phases is disconnected as in the earlier models you do not "burn" power for that phase, for the reasons you described in your post.

Do you agree Hap?

[Anonymous]

wow

Holy Crapola...this is a great thread. Learning a lot about electrical stuff...still a bit confusing..but getting better.

Thanks!

Rudi
San Antonio, TX