How much for your new reg

[Keith Winter]

Hi all,
I need some info from those of you that have bought NEW, regulators. No second hand or used ones please.

1) How much did it cost?
2) Did it just plug into the stock wireing connectors?
3) Can you short it out/over load with no damage?
4) Did you unhook the stock reg or do you have to leave the stock reg hooked up?
5) What problems, if any, have you had with it since installing on your bike?
Any input on this would be great. Thanks allot.
Keith

[ChuckB]

I will give this a shot.

1. Cost is around 80 bucks, Motorcyclesuperstore.com Ricks brand.
http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/partslist.aspx?Bike=3354&Department=760&Manufactur er=337[/url]
This is the one for my bike you will need to match year and model for yours.

2.It was a exact replacement so it plugged staight in, clean all contacts first
3. You can never short out or overload anything with out damage, it will take a toll in life expectancey if you do this. I assume you have gone through the stator papers on this sight to determine your r/r is bad?
4. Remove the stock r/r, why would you want an old part hanging around on your bike?
5. No problesm and it works like a champ. Solid charging and no heating problems, But please clean all your electrical contacts and make sure your battery is good.

Hope all this helps.

[Keith Winter]

Ok,
I guess I should have been a bit more clear in my info request, here it goes.
Is your reg a AC stock replacement part OR a DC reg replacement. You can get both.
And, with the proper circuit's in place, any DC regulator can be made short / overload proof. Every good test bench power supply has this feature. The stock AC reg in our old bike's work's by "shorting" out the AC at the proper voltage.
I guess I should have worded my question better. Thank's for the answer.
Keith

[LW_Icarus]

Um, I don't understand your question. if you buy a replacement regulator rectifier it only works one way, just like the stock one. you always remove the old unit, and the electrex or ricks brand will be a plug and play.

the cost as stated before is about 80 bucks give or take a few bucks.
Im running a ricks reg/rec and wired the ground lead both to the frame and also to the neg terminal on the battery.

or you can get a larger unit for an older honda and do some adapting for the extra capacity. they still do exactly the same job as stock.

trying to use a regular regulator and a seperate rectifier must be what you mean, and I don't think anyone has done that, kinda pointless. the only way I can think of to protect it from overloads would be a circuit breaker wired in somehow.

[Keith Winter]

Well,
Maybe I'm worse at explaining thing's than my wife say's I am!! I'll try one more time, then I'll give up and leave everybody alone.

First, the stock regulator (not rectifier) works on a very simple off on system. The AC is branched off from the stator and is fed to a thing called a SCR. The SCR is a electronic switch that is turned on by a pulse of voltage. This pulse comes from the AC itself and the "turn on point" is controlled by a Zener diode. This diode turns on at around 15.5 volts, this gives the on pulse to the SCR which then turns on shunting the AC to ground. At this point the AC positive voltage no longer goes to the rectifier, and that is the point where the DC coming out of the rectifier goes no higher. As RPM drop's so does the AC voltage, and at a point around 15 volts AC the diode will not turn on and so you have what's left of the AC going to the rectifier. There is a 1.5 voltage drop through the diodes in the rectifier, so, 15-1.5= 13.5 volts DC for the battery. The problems with this system are;
The SCR is turning off and on very fast when the bike is runnning faster than about 2000 rpm. This doesn't matter to the AC or the SCR but, it result's in a rapid off/on of FULL output from the stator and at the rectifier which in turn feeds the battery. This is not really what we want for long life of those parts.
The second bad thing is that the stator voltage rises before there is enough RPM for allot of amperage, so you have the voltage being shunted before the current. This is why you have to get the RPM up before there is enough amperage to actually start CHARGING the battery.
Also, as I mentioned before, there is no way to protect the stator or rectifier from short circuit or overload with this type of AC regulation. Some of you out there already know this.
And if anything goes wrong with this SCR reg, you then have full stator output going to the rectifier and battery. Some of you have also had this problem, battery's boiled dry, bulbs going REALLY bright and then burning out, ect.
Electronic components have come light years ahead in the last 10 years and it is now possible to do things that were almost impossible when our old bikes were new. It IS possible to throw away the stock AC reg and do 100 times better with a DC regulator system. These advantages are,
Almost perfect (2 tenths of a volt) regulation at the battery with perfect on demand current regulation as well. This means way longer battery life with the ability to use sealed batteries that will last longer as well.
Fully adjustable voltage regulation subcircuit's that are filtered so you can plug cellphones, GPS unit's, portable CD players, almost anything you want (if you want this stuff) into the reg and it will work with no problem.
But the big thing is DC regulation can protect the rest of your charging system, this is called Current Foldback. Modern electronic components CAN detect short cicuit/ overload conditions instantly and shut themselves off. This can happen over and over again WITHOUT hurting anything and because a DC reg is between the charging system and the rest of the bike, a short/ overload will not hurt the stator or rectifier. I have tested this myself, both on the bike and off. On the bike I shorted out a peice of 18 guage wire at the battery till it got to hot to hold onto with no damage to anything in the charging system. Once I removed the wire the regulator turned back on and away it went. The output of the regulator was hooked right to the battery so there was no fuse to blow. In use the main fuse would have blown, but everyone can get the idea anyway.
That's it. Oh one other thing, they charge better at low rpm as well. This is because the AC voltage is allowed to rise higher at low rpm than with the stock reg. Cost per unit is the hard thing to nail down. It would be around $120 US, I think anyway. There are still some packaging details to be worked out, it will be bigger than the stock reg but still should fit into the same spot. Maybe I should have waited, but I wanted some input from everyone out there, so go ahead and blast me.
Keith

[bgk]

Keith,

I believe that part of the confusion for the guys who have answered your post, is that most GS bikes are equipped with a combination regulator/rectifier, in a single physical unit.

Your bike has completely separate regulator and rectifier units.

My 1979 GS1000L had separate regulator and rectifier units, and I replaced them both with a single aftermarket Electrex regulator/rectifier unit. As I recall, it was a simple ?plug and play?.

For many years, Electrex was considered the best, and Electrex was the primary financial sponsor for this GS Resources website.

I understand that Electrex has been sold (and the name changed slightly), and that the opinion of many here on the GSR is that the current quality of their products is not as good as it used to be.

Many people have recently chosen the combo reg/rec unit manufactured by Rick?s and have posted favorable reviews on the Rick?s reg/rec product.

I have no direct experience with the Rick?s product, but I believe it is also ?plug and play?

Sorry, I can?t answer or intelligently comment on the technical electrical questions in your posts. The technical contents of your last post are way over my head. Electricity is, and probably always will be, somewhat of a mystery to me.

[bwringer]

To get at the real questions behind your post, Keith:

1) The replacement units all work the exact same way as the originals. Those of us who have upgraded to Honda reg/rect are simply taking advantage of the fact that Honda's supplier, Shindengen, used higher quality components than Suzuki. Same with the Rick's and Electrex components.

2) If you could build a regulator/rectifier replacement that did a better job, was 100% reliable, and as fault-tolerant as you describe, you could sell quite a few of them to devotees of many different kinds of motorcycles, not just GS nuts. You would need to sell a combination regulator/rectifier unit, though -- only a few early models used the separate regulator and rectifier. A unit that just plugged in would be ideal, but you would need to research and support a lot of old, obscure wiring harnesses. A universal unit with clear instructions would also work well.

2a) While you're at it, how about a stator rewinding service? Of course, if the reg/rect is failsafe, you wouldn't need new stators as often.

[duaneage]

Keith,

your post detailing the inner workings of a regulaotr makes perfect sense to me but not to most of the members on this forum.


How about this logic:

I take a Honda SDG regulaotr and crimp a few bullet terminals on it and lengthen a wire or two. 20 bucks for a regulator and another 5 bucks for the connectors, wire and such.

It bolts right in without a fight and keeps the battery juiced. Lasts for a few years. If it dies again I repeat the process with a spare that I also modified. The unit is sealed, commonly available, proven.

As to the use of a precision regulator, Here is a hard fact: Regulation of a motorcycle battery does not have to be within .2 volts all the time. In fact, it is probably a bad idea. By varying the charge voltage the battery recovers from the charge and prevents overheating. Batteries last longer if they are cycled. If a precision regulator attempts to keep 14.3 volts on the battery at idle in traffic it is going to stress the stator coils too much as the output falls off significantly at idle in hot weather. That alone could damage a stator while having the best of intentions.

The Regulators on a OEM Suzuki are just a little too primative, they lack the control circuit that provides feedback to the regulator. THe Honda regulators that have sense wires are more than good enough for motorcycle engines.

In business there is a term known as the Price Point. When a Honda regulator can be pressed into service for 30-40 dollars at the most, that becomes a tough act to follow.

[Sleepy]

bought one for under $70 from z-1 enterprises - it has worked fine in the month or so I've ridden the bike since puttin it on - no more 16v at the battery.... Simple install. Unplug the old, plug in the new. I think its a ricks unit.

[Keith Winter]

Wow,
Great answer's guy's, now we are on the right track. Thank's for the price Sleepy. Good stuff on the Honda reg duaneage, I did not know NEW Honda unit's are that cheap! About your charging comments; a DC reg of the kind I'm talking about only keep's precision at the .2 volt level once there is enough output from the stator to do so. In the stock system the battery at mid to high rpm has to absorb the extra amperage not the voltage that the stator/rec produces. In the stock set up THIS slowly over charges the battery/ heat's the battery with the result being the loss of water in the battery(gassing). The more highway riding you do, the more checking of the water in the battery.A DC reg solves this by also regulating the current as well, this reg makes the charging sytem in the bike almost the same as in any car, if this is a easier way to understand it. A DC reg has just under a 2 volt area between input and output at which point it stop's regulating, it can not try to keep 14.3 volts at idle because that's all the stator will put out at idle. Once stator voltage is at around 15 volts it will start to regulate, however the CURRENT being produced by the stator is still low at this "off idle" state to do any damage to anything. This is were a DC reg is LESS damaging to the stator. In the stock system the SCR's start to shunt (ground) the stator out to limit by VOLTAGE, not current at 15 volts. The DC reg likes the higher AC voltage resulting in better low rpm charging. Also because the AC has a higher peak voltage before SCR shunting takes place, the shunt TIME is reduced. This means the stator spends less time shunted and thus has less heat to dissipate. In other word's, longer stator life.
bwringer;
Thanks for your input, and I did forget that not all the bike's have 2 unit's like my old 1000! And beleive me, they do not get hurt by short's/ overloads. My goal was to keep the unit as small as possible, but it is very easy to have the reg and rec all in one package. The rectifier is really such a simple thing that it can be added anytime AND with bullet proof parts, of course! The big thing was regulation of the stator/ rectifier and the size versus heat disipation problem's, and that's been done. Even if you are stuck in gridlock traffic on a 100 degree day and your bike quit's from the heat, the charging system will go on working. Stator re-winding is not that bad a job, I did mine in about a hour watching tv one night and bulk wire is CHEAP!
bgk;
Thank's for the info, I did not know about the Electrex/ GSR connection. I probably would have never thought this up if you could get a better system for aftermarket (or stock) replacments. As the stock reg is so simple and easy to make, why do anything else? The reason is, they just don't do a great job and are damaged by short/ overload problems. A dc reg circuit is also adjustable, mine is set at 13.5 volts and of course it gets as much amperage as is required, no more no less. Way less worry about water level in the battery, longer battery life. This is NOT true with the stock system or copy's of it.

Thank's for the info, please keep it coming!
Keith

[LW_Icarus]

I see, I was confused by your questions in part because I didn't understand you motive, and also didn't occur to me that your bike was using a seperate rectifier, things are much clearer now
I understand about half of what you are saying, Ive had some Uber-advanced chargers thatd take just about anything you threw at em, for racing R/C stuff,
like was said, if you could develop a "universal" rectifier regulator system, even at a higher cost, you could sell a boatload of em. I work at a parts counter, I field at least one regulator/rectifier call a day, and have had three in a row one time most stock reg/ rec setups are in the 150 range, most aftermarket replacements around 85 bucks or so. prices do vary alot.
I personally would pay up to 200 for an optimised version of a rock solid rect/reg setup, If I could be pretty certain it would survive say 5 or 6 years or more.

[Keith Winter]

Well,
If you work at a parts counter, you know allot more than I do about price and what people are looking for! The stock system in my bikes work just the way they are supposed to, that is , they keep the bike running. There are allot of people out there, who for them, this is all they need or want. And there's nothing wrong with that. For me, and maybe others too, I would like to improve on that aspect of these old bikes. Like I said before, components have come along way in just the last 10 years and if you can improve the weak point of a old bike, why not? More efficient charging means longer battery life, and protection of the stator and rectifier from shorts and overloads is what I was after. You can always keep the stock parts put away if you want to make it stock again. So if you can't find anything on the market that meet's your own standards, what does a guy do? You can't fault the big(or small) company's for not building anything, the market is too small. Anyway.......
Thanks again for reminding me that only the ancient GS's had a 2 component rec and reg! The design was to be all in one anyway, but I HAD forgot that only the ancient GS's had 2 seperate components. I don't see why the version of reg/rec that I want won't outlast just about everyone of us that ride a bike. I don't like things that are cheaply built so every part in this thing is 3 times heavier duty than it has to be and of course it all shut's down instantly if overloaded, so it should outlast us AND the bike! Of course unlike most electronic components, if this thing get's out of the R&D stage, there will be a warranty. 3 years unlimited, if anything goes wrong it's replaced with a new one, something like that. I don't think that's unreasonable. The circuit in there I will be looking into next is a digital volt meter. THAT is something that all bikes can benefit from having. A small LED display that will fit on any bike, a small set of wires that run down to the unit, and the digital circuits right in the reg. I don't think these components will add allot to the cost,(I'm trying to keep it as low as possible) and I think allot of bike nut's like us would go for this, I know I would like to know at a glance what's going on anyway. By the way, I really like the picture of your bike you have on there, it's great.
Please keep the ideas and comments flowing, the more the better.
Keith

[mixongw]

Keith,

This may have already been said and I missed it...

I have never seen a DC regulated rectifier/regulator for these bikes. The only ones I see are AC regulated using SCR's and Zeners. I looked and looked on the internet for a series pass DC regulator that I could adapt but gave up and bought a used Honda (Shindengen 541-12) regulator. It works a lot better than the wimpy stock Suzi regulator. At one time, I even thought of using a LM317, a Zener and a handfull of 2N3055's.

One other thing.. The Shindengen regulators use a remote sense wire. That probably explains the better regulation.

[Keith Winter]

Hey mixongw,
Your right, I looked to, and there is no DC reg out there. Not even one that would be suitable to adapt. They are all SCR type for AC. That's what got me going on this project, I want something better and more reliable than a glorified household light dimmer! I have never taken apart one of these Honda regs, but a SCR can be fired with dc and I'm sure that's what the "sense" wire on the Honda reg does. The stock Suzuki fires off the ac pulse coming from the stator. The one's I have built work both ways but the dc fired SCR's will give a bit better regulation, though you do have to use higher wattage stuff as the dc is on all the time and not pulsing like the ac versions. Your LM317, Zenner, and 2N3055's idea makes me think I've found someone I can really talk to about this stuff! That's were I started out with this project. As you seem to know about that stuff,,, the NPN 3055's work just fine BUT there is a 1 volt base/emitter drop on a NPN pass transistor set up and that degrades regulation when input and output get to close, as in low rpm on the bike. Going to PNP pass transistor's with a wrap-around regulator cicuit solves this problem, though the circuits get more complicated and you have to have a shunting cicuit across the base and emitter in a PNP system to make it bullet proof, it does work and regulate to the battery I think as close to an automotive altenator as is possible with a fixed magnet system. Thanks for the input and if you have any ideas, or want to talk electronics, just give me a shout.
Keith

[Boondocks]

Keith,

The circuit described at Small Engine Voltage Regulator is a small PDF file which describes a conversion from a permanent magnet shunt type regulator to use transistors instead of a zener diode to trip the gate of the SCR.

This seems to be the DC fired SCR setup you were describing, and hopefully this may be of interest to you.