CDI or signal generator?

[snowbeard]

so I just got some spark back on my 850L, nad I think I have narrowed it down to the signal generator, but I could be wrong...

here's how I "know". I pulled the connection for the signal generator into the CDI and grounded one of the terminals at a time with the key on. one side caused one coil to fire, but the other side didn't make the other coil fire. (plugs one and two out and grounded on the engine)

so I goosed the motor with the starter, what I think was one rev, or one bump. this didn't make it fire the other one, so I tried again. after a few of these bumps, both coils started to fire from grounding the same terminal, while grounding the second terminal did nothing. I assumed the signal generator was grounded and flipped between coils, grounding one then the other, but it doesn't seem to work that way.

SO... once it was firing both sides, I got it to turn over with ether, then with just gas and choke. each time, it didn't want to start until I let off the starter button. even just a bump and letting go of the starter would get it to fire up a couple times.

the reason I suspect the generator or the CDI is that once it got started, it would be going along pretty smoothly, then just stop. maybe after five seconds, maybe after thirty. it seemed electrical because it didnt' just sputter out, it acted killed. also, if it had died off, the next start might not take for a few bumps, then it would kick over and backfire, leading me to believe I had lost spark for whatever reason.

so which would strike you as the culpit? the $10 on eBay generator, or the $400 CDI ;-)

for those of you unfamiliar with my plight, here are some pleas for help in order of general relevance...

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=84744

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=83867

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=83791

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=84017

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=84048

[earlfor]

It sounds like a classic case of ignitor box failure. I have been through the same problem. Mine started faulting out one evening on a ride 80 miles in the middle of nowhere. LOL Your best bet (cheapest way out) is to replace the ignition system with a Dyna S. You could get a used ignitor box off ebay, but the problem there is it likely wont be in any better working condition than the one you have that isnt working. Few if any ebay sellers are knowledgable about the condition of electrical parts they sell. For electrical, ebay is a crap game.

You have a "on its way out" ignitor box.

BTW, not to be picky, but no GS models used CDI ignitions. They are all electronic or points. :-)

Earl

[QUOTE=snowbeard]

so which would strike you as the culpit? the $10 on eBay generator, or the $400 CDI ;-)

[snowbeard]

ach, that's not what I had hoped, but electronics go much sooner than simple things like magnets, eh?

anyone want to cheer me up?? ;-)

[earlfor]

Well, the "cheer up" news is that once you change to a Dyna S ignition, You will have no more ignition problems. Anything can always happen, but I have never had a Dyna S ignition go bad, and I have converted a LOT of bikes to them.

Earl

ach, that's not what I had hoped, but electronics go much sooner than simple things like magnets, eh?

anyone want to cheer me up?? ;-)

[snowbeard]

so our bikes are electronic, what is it that's actually happening in the circuit board?
is there any way to bypass that and run something more simple? something I could jerry-rig perhaps to circumvent the ECU? would I be able to convert to points? (obviously there's a reason not to, but if it would be cheaper and might work, I have more tinkering talent than money for the project)

it looks like the dyna just has the pickup? does it actually do anything besides just interupt the orange/white wire to the coils??


this bike is pretty hard ridden, has many issues, and I don't think it's worth the price I paid for the bike to buy a Dyna S, I paid less. :-(

I will also try recleaning all the wires and connections associated with the ECU, as I know they are all in poor shape. Maybe I'll get super lucky and that's all it really was... ';-)

[mark]

this bike is pretty hard ridden, has many issues, and I don't think it's worth the price I paid for the bike to buy a Dyna S, I paid less. :-(

Welcome to the club :-D. Most everything I have on my bike is worth more than I paid for the thing. Its the brotherhood, man!

[earlfor]

The Dyna performs the same functions as the original ignitor box. With 20 years of advances in technology, that 12 cubic inch ignitor box now occupies about 1/4 cubic inch within the crank sensor casting.

Its very easy to retrofit a points ignition system. All you will need is the backing plate, points cam, cam cap washer, right and left pointsets and two condensors. I have done it on a few bikes while waiting to get the green for a Dyna system. :-) Points and condensors are in stock items at cyclerecycle.

Earl

it looks like the dyna just has the pickup? does it actually do anything besides just interupt the orange/white wire to the coils??


this bike is pretty hard ridden, has many issues, and I don't think it's worth the price I paid for the bike to buy a Dyna S, I paid less. :-(

I will also try recleaning all the wires and connections associated with the ECU, as I know they are all in poor shape. Maybe I'll get super lucky and that's all it really was... ';-)

[SqDancerLynn1]

Depending on your igniter You can check & see if you can take it apart? If so try resoldering the circuit board

[snowbeard]

here's a pic of my ignitor, it's been clearcoated after they produced it, but it could be possible that I could resolder it... if I knew more, I could test all the capacitors and resistors, but my bet would be it's the chip(s) in teh little black boxes that has/have given up the ghost...

any thoughts on identifying the culprit? I can look for scorched, but I don't know the color codes to know the resistance to expect, etc...

[earlfor]

If my memory is correct, Duanage was experimenting with rebuilding ignitor boxes. I think he would be the most likely person with experience that may be helpful to you in finding out and repairing what is wrong. Give'em a PM, cant hurt to ask.

Eark

[QUOTE=snowbeard]here's a pic of my ignitor,

[Billy Ricks]

Here's a website with the values for each band on the resistors, http://www.csgnetwork.com/resistcolcalc.html . There are two 450 ohm caps and one 150. This site may help you id your diodes, http://www.tpub.com/neets/book7/24k.htm . Someone else will have to help with the voltage regulators.

[duaneage]

[quote=earlfor]If my memory is correct, Duanage was experimenting with rebuilding ignitor boxes. I think he would be the most likely person with experience that may be helpful to you in finding out and repairing what is wrong. Give'em a PM, cant hurt to ask.

Eark

here's a pic of my ignitor,

I fixed on once with transistors from radio shack for Isaac but I think his coils took it out again. I also have a spare electronic igniton box ( I actually have two) that I'll part with for 25.00 + shipping. Your coils might be bad or shorting out and that will kill anything, even a dyna.

I have a couple of sets of stock coils too....

[duaneage]

Here's a website with the values for each band on the resistors, http://www.csgnetwork.com/resistcolcalc.html . There are two 450 ohm caps and one 150. This site may help you id your diodes, http://www.tpub.com/neets/book7/24k.htm . Someone else will have to help with the voltage regulators.

The transistors I used were TIP122, they had high enough specs. Replacing them requires skill in working on electronics, they can be damaged easily if not done right. Not a job for a BFH or large cresent wrenches.

[duaneage]

here's a pic of my ignitor, it's been clearcoated after they produced it, but it could be possible that I could resolder it... if I knew more, I could test all the capacitors and resistors, but my bet would be it's the chip(s) in teh little black boxes that has/have given up the ghost...

any thoughts on identifying the culprit? I can look for scorched, but I don't know the color codes to know the resistance to expect, etc...

You can test the ignitor.

Use a AA battery. Connect the + terminal of the batter to the green wire and the - terminal to the black ground. When you touch the + terminal to the green the coil should spark. This was taken from the manual.

The transistors are those black chips. They are 2SD977 darlington Pair power transistors. They actually switch the coils on and off just like a set of points do. They do get warm ( after all they are channeling 30 watts a piece) so it is normal for them to be warm, but not too hot. There is a mica insulator underneath the transistor that insulates it from the metal Do not loose that or monkey with it as it allows the chip to cool. If you remove the chip you must recoat the mica with special compound to cool the chip.

Soldering on diodes, transistors and capacitors is risky business. you must be careful not to over heat the part. I use a temperature controlled iron with heat dissapating tools to prevent damage.

Basically the ignitor is a high speed frequency compensated switch with highslew rates and low ringing, technically speaking.

I hope nobodies head exploded on that one.

[earlfor]

Awww its ok, we know you only said that because it sounds good. :-)

Earl ehehehe

Basically the ignitor is a high speed frequency compensated switch with highslew rates and low ringing, technically speaking.

I hope nobodies head exploded on that one.