Tubeless Tires

[Matt K]

I have an 81 GS750L, and I have a questions about tubeless tires. I have read prior posts about people running tubeless tires on the mag rims that come with the bike, so here is my question. The prior owner put new tires on the bike (they still have the little nubbins on them). He also told me that he has new tubes in the tires. These times state that they are tubeless. I did not think it was a good idea to run tubes in a tubeless tire? Also and more importantly, exactly how hard is it for someone that has never worked on a motorcycle to remove the tubes and use these tires in a tubeless setup? Any help would be great!!!

Matt K

 

[Guest]

Hi Matt, Were I you, if you aren't having trouble with the tires or tubes, I wouldn't do anything with them until they, either get a flat or need to be replaced. That said, I'm running tubeless in my new tires, following Earl's excellent advice. Just my .02 worth. Ray

 

[mcconnell]

Someone else will jump in here with exact information, but I remember reading awhile back early (don't know what year) mags were not rated for tubless tires. It will be cast into the wheel if they are. That said, I also remember reading that some folks tried tubless tires on non-tubless rated rims and were successful (I think). If you have never changed a motorcycle tire before it can be very challenging to get the bead off the rim. You need tire irons made for the job; don't fool with big screwdrivers. In your case, you only need to get one off and pull the tube out, lube it up and pry it back on, assuming your wheels are correct. Get a service manual for removing and replacing the wheels from the bike.

Sorry I couln't be more specific. In a few minutes, someone else will be.

 

[Boondocks]

I have an 81 GS750L, and I have a questions about tubeless tires. I have read prior posts about people running tubeless tires on the mag rims that come with the bike, so here is my question. The prior owner put new tires on the bike (they still have the little nubbins on them). He also told me that he has new tubes in the tires. These times state that they are tubeless. I did not think it was a good idea to run tubes in a tubeless tire? Also and more importantly, exactly how hard is it for someone that has never worked on a motorcycle to remove the tubes and use these tires in a tubeless setup? Any help would be great!!!

Matt K

There is an excellent "how-to" article by earlfor at Tubeless Tires, Unmarked Alloy Wheels and Tire Sealers. If you follow Earl's method it will eliminate the possibility of leaks from rim porosity.

All new tires are tubeless and they can be used with tubes on older bikes for which tubes are recommended. Usually the tire sizes associated with older tube types will have marked in fine print somewhere something like "May be used with tubes or tubeless".

If you have never worked on a motorcycle before, removing and replacing tires would be a tough start. You might never want to work on one again. If you have the right tools and setup and know how to do it properly, it really isn't that hard. But for a beginner or the unprepared, it can be frustrating.

If you decide to remove the tubes and go tubeless, I would wait until the tires are worn and need replacing. There would be no real advantage to removing the tubes now considering the work involved.

 

[Matt K]

One of my main reasons to switch to tubeless is that there appears to be evidance that tubeless tires deal with punctures better (slow leaks as apposed to boom) than tubes do. If that is not really true than i will wait for the next tire change.

 

[Boondocks]

One of my main reasons to switch to tubeless is that there appears to be evidance that tubeless tires deal with punctures better (slow leaks as apposed to boom) than tubes do. If that is not really true than i will wait for the next tire change.

That's true, but the fastest air loss with a tube would be on a old spoked rim, with many spoke holes to let air escape. On a cast rim such as yours, the air escaping from the nail hole should be about the same whether there is a tube or not in the tubeless tire. The additional air would have to be released through the valve stem hole as the tubeless tire would be sealed to the rim.

Unless you get a lot of flats I wouldn't bother. It's prudent to be prepared for a flat repair when traveling since usually there is no other option to keep rolling. I can't remember the last time I had a flat on a motorcycle, but maybe I'm just lucky.

 

[mcconnell]

Tubeless tires absolutely handle nails and whatnot better than tubes, provided they are stuck in the tire. The tubeless tire seals around the object and prevents a sudden deflation. Once at college I was walking toward my bike one day and noticed a nail in the rear tire. The tire seemed to be holding air and since I had no way of fixing it there, I rode 30 miles home. Checking the tire later, after it cooled down, the air pressure was still where it belonged. I have no idea how long the nail was in there. Stick with tubeless if possible.

 

[Matt K]

Tubeless tires absolutely handle nails and whatnot better than tubes, provided they are stuck in the tire. The tubeless tire seals around the object and prevents a sudden deflation. Once at college I was walking toward my bike one day and noticed a nail in the rear tire. The tire seemed to be holding air and since I had no way of fixing it there, I rode 30 miles home. Checking the tire later, after it cooled down, the air pressure was still where it belonged. I have no idea how long the nail was in there. Stick with tubeless if possible.

So the question is really should I convert from tubes, or wait untill the next tire change?

 

[wolfie]

If your bike still has it, check the tire info label on your back fender. It will tell you whether or not your bike was set up for tubeless. My 81 850L states that it uses tubeless. Hope this helps.

 

[8trackmind]

So the question is really should I convert from tubes, or wait untill the next tire change?

Wait 'till the next set of tires.

 

[mcconnell]

Now or later? If you were comfortable doing this, I'd say it would make for a nice Saturday morning project. You wanted to grease the front wheel bearings anyway, didn't you? Since you aren't that comfortable, just wait till they wear out.

 

[Matt K]

ok, I will do that then...

 

[rphillips]

Nobody was afraid of tubes in tires before we had tubeless tires, so we shouldn't be afraid of them now. Why not run the tubes. Odds are you probably won't have a flat, but if you do, then remove the tubes while fixing the flat.

 

[Matt K]

Nobody was afraid of tubes in tires before we had tubeless tires, so we shouldn't be afraid of them now. Why not run the tubes. Odds are you probably won't have a flat, but if you do, then remove the tubes while fixing the flat.

Which makes sense. So what should I have with me to fix the tire if I get a flat, and where do you (meaning everyone) suggest that I buy that kind of stuff?

 

[rphillips]

Any parts store, or Wal-Mart, has a kit, all it is, is patch & glue. If you never fixed a flat on a bike tube before, don't try it without someone who has been there before. It's not rocket science, but you will pinch or poke holes in the tube, or scar up the wheels. If a flat should happen, you should have a plan. Call for help to haul the bike home, or to a shop for repair. Don't be afraid of having a flat, it does happen, but very rarely. I don't look for things to worry about, but if you're looking deer, dogs, possums, kids, cars, trucks, or other stuff like that. Also worry about not paying enough attention, I let my mind wander for about 5 seconds, & ran into the back of my buddy's bike once, remember you rarely get second chances on a bike.

 

[dpep]

I ran tubes in tubeless tires for over 20 years and well over 100,000 miles. I hate changing motorcycle tires. I am more than glad to pay somebody a few bucks to do it, but many/most shops won't mount a tire without a tube unless the rim is marked tubeless. I have finally gotten tubeless rims on both front and rear of my 850, so I should be free of tubes from now on. But it wasn't that big a deal when I was using them. A little extra expense when I bought tires (always got new tubes at the same time), and there is that chance of more rapid deflation. But if it were me I would not go to the trouble of removing the tubesthat were were already mounted in the tires.

 

[Matt K]

Thanks Dpep. I guess I will wait until it is time for new tires!

 

[Roadwarrior]

I've had both, and I like tube tires. With tubless tires, the tires sit on the rims bead very tight, making it very difficult to change a tire without a tire machine. With tubless tires I can change the tires myself with a pair of tire irons, which saves me money on tire changes. As far as flats go, yes you can plug a tubeless tire from the outside, but then you need to replace the tire. With tube tires, all I do is pop one side of the tire off of the bead where the hole is, pull out the tube at that point, patch it, then put it all back together. When I'm done patching the tube the tire is still good to go.

Also, even though people say you should replace the tubes every time you get a new tire, I usually don't unless there are signs of wear on the tube.

 

[Guest]

Rubber is porous to air. Two major factors in porosity are the kind of rubber and how it is 'filled'. Sone of the least porous types of rubber are butyl, chlorobutyl, and bromobutyl. Butyl is used for tubes. Tubeless tires have thin layers of either a chlorobutyl or bromobutyl 'innerliner' as the innermost layer. Both chlorobutyl and bromobutyl can chemically bond the the styrene-butadiene/natural rubber blends that are next, but butyl rubber cannot.

Innerliner must wrap around the bead, to prevent air from escaping between the bead and the rim. But innerliner is relatively fragile, so it is protected by another layer or two of tougher rubber. Some of these layers might have tire cord in them, which can bleed air very quickly if it is in the wrong place. The order in which these layers are placed is critical to air retention.

Tires that rely on inner tubes usually leak air faster than properly mounted tubeless tires on good rims. I once had steel valves installed on a my car rims with a new set of all weather tires. The size of the stems prevented my from putting an air chuck on them, although I could check the pressure. I decided to not go back for remounting until the pressure was below spec. I wore the tires out first, two years later.

Since the tire bead must match the rim almost perfectly, the profile matters. Here, my memory isn't sharp. I believe that the profile of car rims changed a bit when tubeless tires were adopted. Controlling the profile of both the bead and the rim certainly became very important. I vaguely recall something to the effect that Suzuki aluminum wheels had a tubeless profile from the beginning, even though for the first year or two they weren't marked as tubeless because the porosity issue hadn't been settled. It isn't critical if the bead and rim profiles don't match as well when tubes are used.

Tubes are not generally recommended when used with tubeless tires on tubeless wheels. Heat build-up can destroy tires. The extra layer of rubber in an innertube holds, heat, and the slight rubbing between the tube and the tire also add heat. Innerliner does an excellent job of holding air, a far better job than a tube in most circumstances. If I recall correctly, there are special tubes to be used inside tubeless tires.

If wheels are corroded or dented, or if beads are kinked, a tight seal is not likely. If a tire is mounted or dismounted poorly, the mating surface of the wheel can be scratched or otherwise damaged. Removing a tire usually kinks the bead slightly, unless it is done with great care. Rust on the mating surface can also result in relatively fast air leaks.

Tire manufacturers routinely pull samples for "wheel tests" run according to a DOT schedule. The tire is pressed against a steel wheel, about 8 or 10 feet in diameter, that runs off of an electric motor. After a warmup, the tires are run at desert temperatures with increasing speeds and loads until they blow up. Everything is in a steel cage but it is still frightening to be around when it explodes.