E85 fuel

[Guest]

This is a hypothetical question. What would it take to make my bike, or any other GS, run on E85 fuel? I’m not planning to make a conversion on my bike, I’m just curious if anyone has tried this. Or tried any other fuel for that matter.

[graymulligan]

This info's from a couple friends that do R+D for Buick, but I think it's helpful in this case. (I worked for GM for ten years, and still play golf with a couple GM guys whe they're in town)

We were talking about older cars, specifically carbeurated cars in relation to E85. They've played with some older cars that are still available, and a couple older bikes (60's stuff) trying to convert them over to E85. Apparently, Carbeurators and E85 don't get along great. I guess the time involved trying to regulate proper fuel/air mixture, temperature and spark timing is really, really hard. (and that's from a WPI grad and an RIT grad, both mechanical engineering.)

I figure if they think its too tough to tackle, backyard/garage mechanics like us are going to have no shot in heck.

It doesn't really answer your question, but I figured it was related enough to share.

[Billy Ricks]

Back in the 80's when they were blending just 10% ethanol with gas it was wreaking havoc on rubber parts in carbs. 85% would really screw 'em up.

[DimitriT]

Yea, you want to rejet for about 30% richer mixture. An increase in compression and some timing advance wouldn't hurt either. Basically your GS can be made to run E85 by rejetting and maybe raising the needle. And since E85 has a much higher octane rating, you can run more efficiently and get better torque by increasing compression with domed pistons. You will still probably lose about 10% mpg burning E85 but since its much cheaper than gasoline in some parts it might make sense. You probably also want to line your tank. I figure if E85 becomes really popular someone will do the work and come up with a precise conversion plan. I'm all for more E85 - gives a new meaning to byob

http://e85forum.com/post-7.html

[honestdon]

Thanks for the response. I now know something new!

[kato_cowboy]

I'll add this to my list of things to do.

Well I've actually thought a lot about converting to e-85. Eventually I want to ad a turbo to my bike, and E-85 would help in two ways. 1) higher octane, and 2) Cooling. E85, which is actually around 80-82 percent Ethanol in the summer and in winter about 68 percent. Don't qoute me on the winter percent.. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now.

I'm an AET student at Minnesota State University, Mankato. And our department is big into the whole ethanol thing. So I'll do some looking around to see if I can't maybe scrounge up some data for you.

[drhach]

E85

I've pondered this myself. Everybody is pretty right on with this. There are a few things to consider. First, as previously stated, alcohol will eat rubber. That would probably include the fuel lines. Alcohol also has a lower specific heat. Ultimately, what that means is lower fuel economy. On the upside, it burns much cleaner and you can expect a much cleaner fuel system as well as reduced carbon on the pistons. The main thing that is keeping me from using it is that once you convert, you can not run regular gas again. Unless of course you convert it back. I think you might be able to avoid this if you go to fuel injection with wide band O2 sensor. But, I'm not 100%. Of course this won't be an issue if it becomes readily available or if you only ride where they sell E85. Let us know how it works if you do it.

[themess]

Alcohol produces a lot less heat when burned than gasoline does, so power output will drop substantially. It evaporates slower. A substantial part of making a car work on E-85 is probably tweaking the computer to put in more fuel and to adjust the air-fuel mixture ratio to something that is right for E-85.

Gasohol began to see the light of day in this country in the mid-1980s, and immediately problems arose with rubber parts deteriorating. I once attended a seminar put on by a research rubber chemist who had spent some time investigating this problem. Ethanol (ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol) caused few problems, and small changes in rubber compound formulations pretty much eliminated those few.

Methanol (methyl alcohol, wood alcohol) is another beast entirely. It is bad enough when it is by itself, but when it is mixed at about 10% in gasoline it becomes a scourge of most kinds of rubber and plastics. I don't remember what kinds of rubber resist this gasoline-methanol mixture. Fortunately, E-85 is by definition 85% ethanol, and no methanol is used. I'm not aware of anyone using methanol in gasoline. I believe that Indy cars use 100% methanol, but 100% isn't the problem that 10% methanol is.

The rubber chemist developed his own theory about why 10% methanol in gasoline is so bad. Methanol is only a liquid at room temperature, instead of being gaseous, because of hydrogen bonding. Water would also be vapor at room temperature without hydrogen bonding.) The chemist hypothesized that at 10%, the hydrocarbon molecules of gasoline disrupted the hydrogen bonding so much that methanol molecules floated around free, and are able to rapidly penetrate the rubber and attack it. Larger ethanol and gasoline molecules can't do that.

Tom the ex rubber chemist

[kato_cowboy]

Some information and Misinformation

There is some good information and some bad informtion on here about Ethanol. Where do I start. Either way.. changing to E-85 will be a pain if you do it. But there could be some benifits.

Here is a site with some info on it. Which is pretty close to the information that I've learned in all my Classes.

http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/docs/e85_and_energy_content.doc

We'll start off with some facts here.
1 U.S. Gallon of gasoline contains roughly 114,132 btu (Different gas mixtures from season to season, and company to company. You'd be surpised how much gasoline actually varies. It's not one chemical compound. It's a cluster of different compounds. Every company has thier own secret formula)

1 gallon of denatured Ethanol has roughly 77,800 Btu
1 gallon of E-85 has roughly 83,263 Btu
1 gallon of Methanol contains 56,800 BTU

Someone also said Ethanol evaporates slower than gasoline... well put your hand in some gasoline and wave it around. Then put your hand in some E-85 and wave it around. Which one feels colder... I'll save you time. The E-85 will. This is due to faster evaporation. Ever put your hand in Methanol, That's really cold.

It's also said that you would get less power if you used E-85. Well Depends how you look at it. E-85 does have less BTU's per gallon, which means less fuel economy. But E-85 also has a higher octane rating (around 105), Octane is a fuels anti-knock properties. With a higher octane rating you can run higher compression, and timing would most likely have to be advanced.

So if you were going to run E-85. In theory you'd need jets that flowed about 37% more fuel. You'd have to mokey with timing. You'd have to make sure your components (Fuel lines, gaskets) are E-85 compatable, Maybe increase compression, Not sure how much that would take more thinking than I care to do right now.

The thing is.. if you switched to E-85, and decided you didn't like it, pretty much all you'd have to do would be put your smaller jets back in and bring timing back to normal. Other than that If you get components that hold up to E-85 the'll hold up to regular pump gas.


Let me know if this has helped or hindered.

Aaron

[kato_cowboy]

Some REAL info about E85

There is some good information and some bad informtion on here about Ethanol. Where do I start. Either way.. changing to E-85 will be a pain if you do it. But there could be some benifits.

Here is a site with some info on it. Which is pretty close to the information that I've learned in all my Classes.

http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/docs/e85_and_energy_content.doc

We'll start off with some facts here.
1 U.S. Gallon of gasoline contains roughly 114,132 btu (Different gas mixtures from season to season, and company to company. You'd be surpised how much gasoline actually varies. It's not one chemical compound. It's a cluster of different compounds. Every company has thier own secret formula)

1 gallon of denatured Ethanol has roughly 77,800 Btu
1 gallon of E-85 has roughly 83,263 Btu
1 gallon of Methanol contains 56,800 BTU

Someone also said Ethanol evaporates slower than gasoline... well put your hand in some gasoline and wave it around. Then put your hand in some E-85 and wave it around. Which one feels colder... I'll save you time. The E-85 will. This is due to faster evaporation. Ever put your hand in Methanol, That's really cold.

It's also said that you would get less power if you used E-85. Well Depends how you look at it. E-85 does have less BTU's per gallon, which means less fuel economy. But E-85 also has a higher octane rating (around 105), Octane is a fuels anti-knock properties. With a higher octane rating you can run higher compression, and timing would most likely have to be advanced.

So if you were going to run E-85. In theory you'd need jets that flowed about 37% more fuel. You'd have to mokey with timing. You'd have to make sure your components (Fuel lines, gaskets) are E-85 compatable, Maybe increase compression, Not sure how much that would take more thinking than I care to do right now.

The thing is.. if you switched to E-85, and decided you didn't like it, pretty much all you'd have to do would be put your smaller jets back in and bring timing back to normal. Other than that If you get components that hold up to E-85 the'll hold up to regular pump gas.


Let me know if this has helped or hindered.

Aaron