Free R/R Schematic and Parts Description

[mixongw]

I have to agree. I've been following this and the other "sales" thread on R/R's with interest. I've made the honda mod to both my GS's with no problems. The idea of using a product with hardwired bridges and scr's, 1/4 watt resistors on veroboard, unpotted in a homemade case doesn't appeal to me at all. The honda design is well proven, cheap and a direct replacement, why complicate things? I don't mean to **** on anyone's parade, just my 2 cents.

Ditto. Exactly my viewpoint. Couldn't have said it better. :-)

[duaneage]

I've actually worked for companies that manufacture electronic components so I know a little about testing adn making things.

Electronic assemblies need to be tested properly to be used in harsh environments. There are also different standards for military grade parts than civilian grade. Motorcycles are hot places where there is a lot of radiated heat and even caustic fumes. At a minimum electronics needs to be coated in lacquer to prevent moisture from attacking the parts. Ideally you should encapsulate the assembly in epoxy to immobilize it.

Any assembly needs to be tested for MTBF to insure it will not fail when you need it most. You need more than a snappy design, better parts with higher tolerances of some type, and a voltage adjustment. The device should be tested for heat ouptu, hi-potted for safety, and driven to failure to determine safe operating limits.

Do you know what the proper way to attach wires to an assembly is? What gauge is proper? What type of wire to use and insulation type is needed? What kind of solder are you planning to use on the connections? How much heat do you apply to the Diodes and SCR assemblies without damaging them? How do you prevent damage while building the unit?

Boondocks raised some critical points about building these RR's because it is a critical part. Getting up a head of steam about building a better RR than you could buy is one thing. Actually accomplishing it is another and when there is a suitable replacement available easily for a few dollars why take a chance.
BTW do you know how to read date codes on components? The parts you get may actually be very old and could have been improperly stored. Honda used the 6 wire type regulator on bikes made in the late 90's too. I would trust one of those SDG RR's anyday.

[Boondocks]

You could wire a capacitor in parallel with a Honda (or Suzuki for that matter) OEM R/R just as easily.

But why.

It won't save you from getting stranded. You really weren't stranded without it either.

The cap certainly won't start your bike, which means you'll still need to get it jumped or push start it anyway.
Once you get it started, the cap will filter the pulsating DC coming from the R/R, so it will let it keep running.
But guess what; even a really crappy, drained battery will do that too.

As long as you keep it on the bike, the battery should be good enough to keep it running. Even if its shot.

Exactly! I had the same thought but replying to this type of speculation and needless concern becomes onerous. Maybe the fact that no motorcyle manufacturer has ever added this type of capacitor to a battery ignition system for insurance against "stranding" should be a clue. Adding a capacitor is a solution in search of a problem.

As I recall it was done because someone asked if they could run their bike without a battery. The capacitor was added so that theoretically a bike could run without a battery, smoothing the rectified DC pulses to prevent damage to electrical components requiring a smooth DC waveform. The real question is, why would anyone want to run the bike without a battery? Even a dead battery will smooth DC pulses better than the capacitor.

[ehra]

Maybe the fact that no motorcyle manufacturer has ever added this type of capacitor to a battery ignition system for insurance against "stranding" should be a clue. Adding a capacitor is a solution in search of a problem.

Wrong, check your FACTS, European and British bikes have used them for years.
I Have two 1970 Triumph 500's that have a large capacitor in the circuit to run with a battery failure or when you take off the lights, they even tell you how to set it up in the owners manual. Triumph and Nortons did that a lot when they built a model that may be run off road without the battery and lights. By the way they also have a single zener diode that can handle about 22 amps with stock giant heat sink mounted under the headlight, And sometimes the would melt the battery right in to the battery box.

Glenn

[Planecrazy]

I had the same thought but replying to this type of speculation and needless concern becomes onerous.

I'm actually amused at the level of devotion you guys are attaching to using old used parts. Duane's comments about component age are actually laughable, because he's comparing 10, 15, even 20+ year old used components to ANYTHING purchased today. As for "military spec," that's almost as funny, since quite often the ONLY difference between a military spec "anything" and it's civilian counterpart is the label on the box. Even "military spec" laptops (which are made by several well known manufacturers and contain the most sensitive parts you'll generally find on a battlefield) are often identical to consumer versions with the exception of being packaged in stronger more shock isolated cases!

In today's world it is EXTREMELY difficult to find even a cheap component that won't last at least a reasonably long time, and comparing those components to the ones made twenty years ago is a joke. Quality control in even the worst Asian knockoff shops is generally better than what was "cutting edge" back then.

Now, regarding assembly, Duane brings up several valid issues, including construction methods, assembly materials (wire, solder, etc.), and protection from the elements. I can honestly say that anything I've ever assembled (since I was a teen) that didn't immediately fail for some reason has NEVER failed due to assembly errors. Several people will attest to my curse as a perfectionist when it comes to solder joints, assembly, etc., and once the design is finalized I do indeed plan to seal it in epoxy, so weather shouldn't be a factor.

Really guys ... it's OK with me if you go with the Honda units ... I contemplated it myself recently, but I much prefer going the superior route and doing it myself with more flexibility and better components.

To each his own...

Regards,

[Boondocks]

I'm actually amused at the level of devotion you guys are attaching to using old used parts....

Really guys ... it's OK with me if you go with the Honda units ... I contemplated it myself recently, but I much prefer going the superior route and doing it myself with more flexibility and better components.

To each his own...

Regards,

Believe me, the amusement is mutual. The only level of devotion that I see is to your beta testing of an unproven prototype to which you have already ascribed the highest attributes (superior route) before any long term testing can verify any part of these wishes. The "old used parts" are very inexpensive, of high quality, and have proved time and time again to be a straightforward and reliable solution. This isn't devotion, it's common sense recognizing a practical solution.

To each his own... Have fun with your soldering and sealing. For your next project you might consider reinventing the wheel. I'm sure that you could improve on it.:-D

[Planecrazy]

What's even funnier is that the person who initiated this thread on "open source" solutions has turned tail and completely backtracked on his own post! You also conveniently ignore the fact that your "time and time again" solution has had to be applied to my "time and time again" mention of people whose OEM units have failed. Somehow the quality of the parts you are so steadfastly defending seems a little hollow, although I grant that the Honda replacements are supposed to be quite good.

Also, you casually dismiss what you call an "unproven" prototype even though it's based on a known and solid design spec which imitates (with beefier components) what's already known to work properly ... you don't find this odd? You can't have it both ways...

Oh, and by the way ... if people were satisfied with simply going with what worked without ever trying to improve it or add features, we'd all still be driving Model T's now wouldn't we? And yet each year EVERY car manufacturer attempts to "reinvent the wheel" a little bit at a time.

One more thing, Philip ... for somebody who appears to be agreeing with Duane about how risky it is to use "off the shelf components" in replacement of the "holy grail" OEM units you certainly ARE taking a lot of risks by having modified your own bike in various ways ... have you tested all those relays to make sure they won't fail at a critical time and leave you without lights, horns, etc.? Did you used approved and tested methods of connecting the circuits? Are the wires you spec'd up to the task? What is their MTBF? Also, why do you have a digital voltmeter on your bike? Are you worried about your OEM electrical system? Oil cooler? Why reinvent what the factory designed for cooling itself -- didn't they get it right? Now obviously I'm being facetious, because I happen to like all the mods you did, but haven't you already proven my point for me by having tweaked your bike as much as you have? Why not replace the R/R with one more suited to a particular need?

Enough said...:roll:

[Boondocks]

Maybe the fact that no motorcyle manufacturer has ever added this type of capacitor to a battery ignition system for insurance against "stranding" should be a clue. Adding a capacitor is a solution in search of a problem.

Wrong, check your FACTS, European and British bikes have used them for years.
I Have two 1970 Triumph 500's that have a large capacitor in the circuit to run with a battery failure or when you take off the lights, they even tell you how to set it up in the owners manual. Triumph and Nortons did that a lot when they built a model that may be run off road without the battery and lights. By the way they also have a single zener diode that can handle about 22 amps with stock giant heat sink mounted under the headlight, And sometimes the would melt the battery right in to the battery box.

Glenn

Well, Glenn, I stand corrected! I should have said that onroad motorcycle manufacturers with reasonably reliable electical systems (not made by Lucas, known as "The Prince of Darkness") don't add capacitors. Capacitors might also be used on (mostly older) offroad bikes using a magneto ignition (no battery required) to avoid extra weight and prevent damaging a battery from offroad jouncing. I started riding on vintage Brit bikes and if the lights worked you were lucky. In fact, it seems like I worked on them more than rode them because something was always breaking. The Lucas electrical systems were notoriously poor and unreliable. I hope that the "large" capacitors that you mentioned were more reliable than the failure prone ignition capacitors used in Lucas magnetos, as seen at LUCAS MAGNETOS- THE MOST CURSED AND LEAST UNDERSTOOD PART OF A BRITISH MOTORCYCLE! With that type of bike/ignition, it's probably a good idea to carry extra capacitors, and extra everthing else that is portable.

The early Brit variants were fun bikes, but their overall quality was so poor that they couldn't compete when the Japanese marketed bikes that were/are as reliable as cars. Of course, the current situation has changed and all modern bikes are well engineered and dependable to be able to compete on the world market. Since you have a good handle on the facts, how many new Brit/European bikes are using magnetos with a large capacitor in the circuit and single zener diode that can handle about 22 amps with a stock giant heat sink? Clearly, the 1970 Triumph was not a paragon of electrical perfection.

BTW, would you happen to be the same ehra that used to post at CDFreaks?

[ehra]

In reality Lucas battery ignition was not unreliable at all just points and regular coils. Mags are another story altogether. I am surprised that the problems these old Suzuki's are the same one that Lucas was cursed about, poor stators, regulators bad (zener) and batteries boiling over.
By the way the character of an old Brit bike is the whole experience of it all, like when the headlight fails is on the darkest part of the road next to the Clackamas river, the rear brake light switch breaks in half shorting everything out on the Freemont bridge, woo what fun.
Not me from that other site mine has to do with an r/c car race assn. that races out by Amity on Eola Hills rd, clay oval.
Want to go riding some time I am always up for something in your neck of the woods, I will ride my Suzuki because I don’t want an oily foot from a British twin but that is another story for another time.
Have a great day

Glenn

[Boondocks]

What's even funnier is that the person who initiated this thread on "open source" solutions has turned tail and completely backtracked on his own post! You also conveniently ignore the fact that your "time and time again" solution has had to be applied to my "time and time again" mention of people whose OEM units have failed. Somehow the quality of the parts you are so steadfastly defending seems a little hollow, although I grant that the Honda replacements are supposed to be quite good.

Also, you casually dismiss what you call an "unproven" prototype even though it's based on a known and solid design spec which imitates (with beefier components) what's already known to work properly ... you don't find this odd? You can't have it both ways...

Oh, and by the way ... if people were satisfied with simply going with what worked without ever trying to improve it or add features, we'd all still be driving Model T's now wouldn't we? And yet each year EVERY car manufacturer attempts to "reinvent the wheel" a little bit at a time.

One more thing, Philip ... for somebody who appears to be agreeing with Duane about how risky it is to use "off the shelf components" in replacement of the "holy grail" OEM units you certainly ARE taking a lot of risks by having modified your own bike in various ways ... have you tested all those relays to make sure they won't fail at a critical time and leave you without lights, horns, etc.? Did you used approved and tested methods of connecting the circuits? Are the wires you spec'd up to the task? What is their MTBF? Also, why do you have a digital voltmeter on your bike? Are you worried about your OEM electrical system? Oil cooler? Why reinvent what the factory designed for cooling itself -- didn't they get it right? Now obviously I'm being facetious, because I happen to like all the mods you did, but haven't you already proven my point for me by having tweaked your bike as much as you have? Why not replace the R/R with one more suited to a particular need?

Enough said...:roll:

It seems that you are doing your best to turn this into a ****ing match. You want to win an argument and won't quit until you win and somebody else loses. I'm getting tired of it, and would be inclined to just let it drop except that your argument is so unfounded and illogical that it is very easy to refute. So I will give one last reply to your provocations.

What's even funnier is that the person who initiated this thread on "open source" solutions has turned tail and completely backtracked on his own post!

Not nice. Now you're insulting me - but for what reason? Do you want me to lose my temper and attack you? Then my behavior would be equally silly, and manipulated by your ill will. I get the feeling that a war of words over the internet is your brand of manliness. If you knew me you wouldn't insult me to my face.

You may not understand motives such as mine when you are obsessed with winning. I started this thread to point out that there was a free schematic, parts list, and description for a home-built R/R of which I had posted a link last November. This was an alternative for those that didn't want to pay for it. Nothing more and nothing less. I never had any intent to build it. If I had, I could have done it in November. My own original R/R is working fine, and I already have a backup Honda Shindengen 8-wire R/R ready to drop in should I need it.

How does that relate to "What's even funnier is that the person who initiated this thread on "open source" solutions has turned tail and completely backtracked on his own post!" I can only guess that you mean that I have abandoned the free design. The fact is that I realize that different people like to do different things. Some like to experiment and build things on their own like bakalorz. I applaud this type of effort whether it is something that I would do myself or not, as long as no one tries to extract profit from forum members for their experiments. It's a fun, hobby type thing for many people and an opportunity to learn and experiment. I have built much more complicated devices myself. I participate in these threads not because I need the parts or want to build them, but to add information, ideas, and opinions for those who may have different motives. Sometimes my opinions are critical, but usually not.

You also conveniently ignore the fact that your "time and time again" solution has had to be applied to my "time and time again" mention of people whose OEM units have failed. Somehow the quality of the parts you are so steadfastly defending seems a little hollow, although I grant that the Honda replacements are supposed to be quite good.

Again, you are making an apples and oranges, out of context observation. Your (lack of) logic baffles me, unless you misread the context of my post due to a prejudiced focus. What does a solution (Honda Shindengen R/R) that solves a problem "time and time again" have to do with your mention of OEM units failing "time and time again"? As Meskito would say, "And what exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in China?" My point was, if you will read it again, that the Honda Shindengen R/R's had proven their economy and reliability as replacement parts. I don't understand whatever else you are reading into this, because there is nothing else.

Also, you casually dismiss what you call an "unproven" prototype even though it's based on a known and solid design spec which imitates (with beefier components) what's already known to work properly ... you don't find this odd? You can't have it both ways...

This is interesting. You admit that the design that you purchased imitates what you characterize as a known and solid design spec which is already known to work properly. This may be true if you have very loose standards. The file date of vreg.pdf is 9/27/05, so it has been on the internet for 9 months at most. The author of the file said "This circuit was tested out on a Suzuki GS400E motorcycle and seems to function fairly well." I have no more information, nor do you, of any more short term or longer term performance on any bike, much less the one that it was designed for. Don't get me wrong, I think that the design is competent, but it is not a rigorously tested and proven design at this point. So no, I don't find it odd to call the design you purchased an "unproven prototype". I don't differentiate between the designs to "have it both ways". Both designs are unproven prototypes with only short term experience.

One more thing, Philip ... for somebody who appears to be agreeing with Duane about how risky it is to use "off the shelf components"...

I don't know if you fashion yourself to be a psychic, but if so, you fail miserably. Duane has his thoughts and points, and I have mine. If I agree with Duane, I will say so and you won't have to continue to misinterpret my thoughts and points through your selective vision.

You will not see "Homebuilt R/R" on my signature line, or any other shunt regulator including Honda. The only reason that I would swap out a working R/R would be to improve performance, and that won't happen with a shunt regulator. I do know of a significant R/R improvement which I may implement, but you probably already know what it is since you think you know my thoughts.

One last thought. You may be the kit builder par excellence, I'll take your word for it. You consider yourself a perfectionist in soldering and kit assembly, going back to your teens. Given that, you should have the ability to minimize errors that inexperienced builders make and should be able to build a more reliable device as a result. What about the others without your skills who are paying for this plan thinking that it will automatically produce the superior product that you continue to advance? I suspect that there will be botched efforts, cold solder joints, overheated joints, etc. made by others that will compromise the design performance. What will you say to these people if this happens, since you have been a champion for the design and have undoubtedly influenced some to spend their money for the "superior" product? If it is not competently assembled, it may be a doorstop. In other words, it is not just about you being a soldering wizard, but about others as well. Maybe you should consider assembling units for those less gifted to ensure that it is done properly. Otherwise, some without your abilities may be disappointed, to say the least.

Finally, I'm getting sick of this subject and would like to move on to other things if possible. I'm hoping for a reasonable response so I don't have to reply. Your main skill in arguments seems to being in wearing out the other party to the point that they lose interest and quit.

[Planecrazy]

Philip,

Saw your post, but don't have time to properly respond now ... will do so tonight. Suffice it to say, I don't like the contentiousness of this thread either, but feel there is equal blame to share in how it got this way ... more later.

Regards,

[duaneage]

I'm actually amused at the level of devotion you guys are attaching to using old used parts. Duane's comments about component age are actually laughable, because he's comparing 10, 15, even 20+ year old used components to ANYTHING purchased today. As for "military spec," that's almost as funny, since quite often the ONLY difference between a military spec "anything" and it's civilian counterpart is the label on the box. Even "military spec" laptops (which are made by several well known manufacturers and contain the most sensitive parts you'll generally find on a battlefield) are often identical to consumer versions with the exception of being packaged in stronger more shock isolated cases!

When you figure out that your wrong, try posting again.

Mil-Spec includes a wider range of temperature. Instead of 0 - 40 C Mil-Spec runds from -20C - 140C. For some components it is even higher. Guess which standard you need for your "better" regulator? There are also vibration specifications too. Do you really know anything about electronic components?

Us "guys" are equally amazed at the level of devotion you have to a homebuilt RR that your willing to trust over a tried and true "old" design. Why not just buy a new bike if your concerned about the age of the electronics? The ignitors are pretty ancient, have someone design one of those with new parts.

[Planecrazy]

The point that you completely missed, Duane, is that modern consumer electronics often surpass "mil-spec" right out of the box. That's why several laptop companies can offer a "mil-spec" product that is electronically IDENTICAL to it's commercial version with the exception of the casing to protect unit from shock, etc.

Maybe you'll get off your "high horse" long enough to realize that customizing any given part of a bike doesn't require that you buy some other commercial alternative to what you already have. I have never rejected the idea of using commercial components, but I've also never rejected the idea that a custom built part can't be every bit as good or better than what's available commercially. It seems that you, on the other hand, reject that possibility outright without any acknowledgement that there are plenty of ways to successfully approach a given challenge.

That, in a nutshell, defines our differences, and for you or Philip or anyone else to criticize and insult those of us who might choose to go a different way when you have absolutely no idea what our backgrounds are is what causes threads like these to become contentious. If you read through all of my posts there is a common theme ... I've acknowledged both the fact that your choice is a reasonable option, as well as kept an open mind about custom alternatives. You and Philip, on the other hand, have berated even the idea of "doing it yourself," and consequently minimized the several legitimate points that you've brought up along the way. Just because it's not something you would do doesn't automatically make it the wrong choice for someone else. You guys would do well to remember that in the future.

Regards,

[duaneage]

i really don't care about your "opinions"

Do whatever you want. Are you trying to change my mind or just win a pi$$ing contest?

[Planecrazy]

i really don't care about your "opinions"

Do whatever you want. Are you trying to change my mind or just win a pi$$ing contest?

... Just trying to point out the obvious ... that I'm the one attempting to have a reasonable conversation with an open mind, while you are the one who has been continuously negative both in your opinions and in the manner with which you address other peoples views. I don't know what specifically you're calling "opinions," but since you have twice failed to acknowledge FACT regarding several recent mil-spec laptops I can only assume that you're simply trying to avoid acknowledging that you might just possibly be wrong about the state of modern electronic components ... you just can't stand to admit even the possibility that you might be wrong. Like I said before, this rigid, completely uncompromising attitude in even considering the possibilities marginalizes any valid points you might have (and which I gave plenty of reasonable consideration to).

Bottom line: At this point I don't put much stock in your "opinions" either, and I certainly WILL do whatever I want ... you feel free to do the same.

Signing off now from this now pointless thread ... Regards,