Does this NOS starter clutch look new?

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hey Ian, thanks for that! I understand now.
My "NOS" clutch also came with the driven gear assy'.
To update anyone interested, it appears the driven gear was NOS but the starter clutch is used/damaged. The new gear contributed to my confusion when I first examined it. He did list it as a complete NOS starter clutch assy'.
I'm sending it back tomorrow after he finally answered my e-mails. Maybe he was busy?
When I first told him the NOS unit was used, he said to return it for exchange. I reminded him that he told me before that all 5 "NOS" clutches he has looked like the one sent to me, so I only want to exchange if they really are brand new.
He now says that 3 of those 5 are in a factory sealed bag and there's no doubt they're new and I'll get one of those. I hope so.
The thing is, after winning the clutch and knowing he had more, I told him I didn't want the one in the picture and would he please send another.
He didn't answer and when it arrived I could tell from close ups that it was the same "marked up" clutch in his pic that I had questioned being new.
All he had to do was grant my request. Instead, all this messaging/screwing around/returning. He's been selling a long time. How do they manage to make a simple transaction such a PITA?
Just out of curiosity I'll ask you guys; if the replacement is new and alls well that ends well, would you give him a negative feedback, neutral, or positive? I've never given anyone anything but positive and don't want to be on this guys sh-list because he'll probably be selling something else I'll want in the future.

[Mike McNaney]

Id give him a neutral with a scolding if he hasnt already given you feedback and if he has already given you a positive then Id give him a negative. Theres really no excuse for that crap. The higher the volume these ebay guys do the less effect a single neg has on his rating. So they care very little. Really in the end all they have to do is open a fresh seller account and start over. I got screwed hard once and opened up 5 buyers accounts just to win more of the guys stuff so I could slam his rating. He got severely ****ed but in the end just opened a new seller account.

By the way, that type of clutch is called an "over running clutch" or a "one way clutch" that type is is in each drum of an automatic transmission also to keep the engaged drum from spinning the other.
Just a tidbit.

[Mike McNaney]

I should have let your text sink in before I wrote. Ive been ripped on ebay a few times. More heavily than Id like to admit so my ire comes up quick.

I guess if alls well in the end and you may want more from him.... No feedback is probably the way I would go.

[Mike McNaney]

A third thought. The reason over running clutches come apart, springs break, etc. is from over revving (the springs are tensioned for the intended rpm range they will see) and also from quick changes in rpm up or down. Thats why real drag bikes dont have starters.

[SqDancerLynn1]

It sounds like he's doing good by you.. replacing it. IF the replacement is indeed NOS give him + feedback. reasoning is that He could have gotten a big box of parts & someone put their old one back in the box

[Commodus]

Hey Ian, thanks for that! I understand now.
My "NOS" clutch also came with the driven gear assy'.
To update anyone interested, it appears the driven gear was NOS but the starter clutch is used/damaged. The new gear contributed to my confusion when I first examined it. He did list it as a complete NOS starter clutch assy'.
I'm sending it back tomorrow after he finally answered my e-mails. Maybe he was busy?
When I first told him the NOS unit was used, he said to return it for exchange. I reminded him that he told me before that all 5 "NOS" clutches he has looked like the one sent to me, so I only want to exchange if they really are brand new.
He now says that 3 of those 5 are in a factory sealed bag and there's no doubt they're new and I'll get one of those. I hope so.
The thing is, after winning the clutch and knowing he had more, I told him I didn't want the one in the picture and would he please send another.
He didn't answer and when it arrived I could tell from close ups that it was the same "marked up" clutch in his pic that I had questioned being new.
All he had to do was grant my request. Instead, all this messaging/screwing around/returning. He's been selling a long time. How do they manage to make a simple transaction such a PITA?
Just out of curiosity I'll ask you guys; if the replacement is new and alls well that ends well, would you give him a negative feedback, neutral, or positive? I've never given anyone anything but positive and don't want to be on this guys sh-list because he'll probably be selling something else I'll want in the future.

I've dealt with Paul Miller...oh, so many many times. He's always been fantastic, but sometimes he is definitely a little disorganized. I'm sure that the hassles you're having are caused by honest confusion or lack of organisation. I've had various issues on occasion, and he's always done his best to take care of them. In my case, he has earned the benefit of the doubt.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

I've dealt with Paul Miller...oh, so many many times. He's always been fantastic, but sometimes he is definitely a little disorganized. I'm sure that the hassles you're having are caused by honest confusion or lack of organisation. I've had various issues on occasion, and he's always done his best to take care of them. In my case, he has earned the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah. I couldn't believe it when I saw the "NOS" part he'd sent me. I've always had good luck with him.
I'm thinking it will turn out OK but if he'd just read his messages and communicate a little better...

[49er]

A third thought. The reason over running clutches come apart, springs break, etc. is from over revving (the springs are tensioned for the intended rpm range they will see) and also from quick changes in rpm up or down. Thats why real drag bikes dont have starters.

Mike, I disagree with this statement. Contrary to what the author of the Honda article says, the rollers are completely dis-engaged from the clutch gear when the engine is running, be it at 1000 or 13000rpm. In fact, the higher the rpm, the less likely they are to make contact.
If you look closely at the starter clutch, you will notice that the slots in the housing where the rollers sit are slightly tappered which allows the rollers to force back into the wider area and move out of contact from the clutch gear ring. This happens when centrifugal force is generated by crankshaft rotation. The higher the revs, the greater the force on the rollers at the end of the slot. The rollers force against the plungers/brushes which in turn compress the springs. The sole purpose of the springs and plungers is to return the rollers into the narrow part of the slot and make square contact with the clutch gear, for the next start up.
The springs are realitively light and do break. This causes uneven pressure on the drive surface and a noisy chatter with each start up, until wear eventually causes complete failure.
It is vital that the starter clutch mount surface and the mating surface on the stator assy are true to the clutch drive ring. I believe that some failures are due to misalignment here.
The reason many drag racers don't use starters is two fold. Firstly, they can save some weight by removing the starter, associated idler assys and the starter clutch assy. Weight saved equals faster times. Also, seriously elevated compression ratios often mean that stock starters wont do the job. In this case push starts or remote electric starters are used.

[chef1366]

If he makes things right I'd give him a positive.

[Planecrazy]

Since he is trying to do right by you AND since you've had positive past experience with him (as have others you know) I would lean toward a "positive" rating IF the replacement comes back perfect. Otherwise, I'd go "neutral," especially considering you might do business with him again someday ... why sour a basically good seller/buyer relationship?

Regards,

[Mike McNaney]

Hi 49er, I know all about it actually. I didnt list all the reasons dragbikes dont have a starter. weight is of course one of them. There are rotational and gyroscopic forces as well as metalurgy considerations in a one way clutch. The springs are the softest then rollers then case
Dump it into 2nd at 100mph and your starter clutch is gone. The rollers will crush the springs. guaranteed.
Other stuff too most likely. Its not nesessarily the rpm that is the cause its the jolt and sudden change that does it.

This is why transmission blankets are a requirement in NHRA at faster levels. Because the over running clutches can jamb and lock the trans making it explode if you lose load under full power. (broken driveshaft, etc.)

I recently had mine out and was looking at it and thinking how it looked just like an auto trans jobby just smaller.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hey you guys. I'd appreciate some more help please.
I finally received the replacement starter clutch. Here again is the first one sent that was obviously used, not NOS as advertised. The Suzuki p/n with it said 12600-49810. This is for a '79 GS1000E.



Below is the replacement, obviously NOS. Now I'm confused because the two parts look identical EXCEPT towards the outer edge. I don't know the correct terminology of the part but the first pic shows a medium gray material approx' 5/16" wide. It then tapers/drops down to meet the very outer part of the clutch.
The new part instead has this copper material. As you can see it's raised about the same height as the first one but the raised area is only approx' 1/8 wide. The p/n on this parts bag said 12600-498??. The last two digits are torn and mostly missing. I can see just a bit of each. My best guess is they are 24 or possibly 21.
Now I don't know what is the right clutch. I can't go by memory and I don't want to take the bike apart at this time because the clutch is still OK. I can't even say that EITHER part/part number has to be right after all the screwing around I've went through with this guy.
So, do any of you know the correct part number and can you tell me which pic is the correct part, or, is it possible that the clutch has just gone through some small design changes and both would be correct?
It seems to me the second one sent to me will work but I really need one of you to ID these and tell me what I've got and if I can use the new one.
The last pic shows close up the difference from the first pic.
Thanks a lot!

[49er]

Hi Keith

That starter clutch assy looks ok. It looks like Suzuki have modified the clutch assy on the perifory of the rollers on the later models. As you say, the material has changed to copper, possibly to counter expansion problems. I have'nt had mine apart yet, but the pics look identical to the obscure photo in my 850 Clymer Manual. The drawing in the 1000 Haynes Manual also seems to confer.
You obviously don't have the springs and plungers fitted behind the rollers in your new starter clutch pic.
Cheers
Ian

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hi Keith

That starter clutch assy looks ok. It looks like Suzuki have modified the clutch assy on the perifory of the rollers on the later models. As you say, the material has changed to copper, possibly to counter expansion problems. I have'nt had mine apart yet, but the pics look identical to the obscure photo in my 850 Clymer Manual. The drawing in the 1000 Haynes Manual also seems to confer.
You obviously don't have the springs and plungers fitted behind the rollers in your new starter clutch pic.
Cheers
Ian

Thanks for the reply Ian.
Right, I didn't have the springs or pins in there for the pic. Can you believe that this one also came with damaged springs? I called Suzuki and they still sell them for just $1/ea. I'd just buy a new set but now I'm worried about the difference I mentioned above. I don't know if the part has just made that change and the operation/installation is uneffected? Heck, I don't even know for sure if either of them is right. Those part numbers are different too, which worries me.
I bought this clutch as insurance for later. Last I looked, a genuine Suzuki part was over $250, so I hope I still get a deal out of this. I don't really need to change it now but I do have to find out if it will work on my bike or just demand a refund.
So I'm hoping someone will chime in and give me a definite answer.

[RacingJake]

The thing I'd check is that the rotor (generator assy) can still bolt flush to the starter clutch with the 3 bolts. If it does then your're good to go. The only problem is to find out, means you got to pull your rotor off.

I know on my 1100 cranks I do too have that same ridge and it cause no problems. But since i think you said your bike is a 1000 I don't know if the rotor is the same, bigger or smaller.

Also try here cause they are pretty good with updated oem part numbers at the bottom of the page

http://www.alpha-sports.com/suzuki_parts.htm