Electrical problems, arrrgh!

[earlfor]

OK, there are some possibilities. As I said previously, you can have 12 volts but with not enough amperage to power anything. For example, you could stack 8 D cell flashlight batteries and get 12 volts, but there is no possibility you could crank your car with that 12 volts.

From your checks, lets assume (for the moment) you do have continuity in all the required circuits since it appears so. We will further assume the points are working properly since points do not usually go bad instantly, but degrade slowly. We are left with good circuits, but not enough flow/amperage. If your battery is showing 12 volts, that level of charge is a DEAD battery. How old is that battery? The battery should show a minimum of 12.5 volts and preferably something around 12.7 or 12.8 depending on the type of battery you have. You will need to have at least 12.5 volts in the battery in any event. Once you have a charged battery, I want you to do a couple of things. Your bike should have an off position for the headlight. Turn it off. If you do not have an off headlight position, open the headlight shell and unplug the headlight. Next, the orange/white lead in your harness that connects to the + terminals on the right and left coils is a single wire in the harness that has a "Y" pigtail on the end that allows you to power both coils. Disconnect the two harness orange/white leads from the coils. In their place, take a 4 ft length of 14 guage or larger wire and make a "Y" pigtail for one end. connect the "Y" end to the coil + coil terminals. Connect the other end directly to the battery + terminal.
This will eliminate any voltage drop the might possibly be in the wiring harness or switches and bypass any voltage drop caused by the ignition switch. Once the above is done (and you have a charged battery installed), Remove the #4 spark plug, reinsert it into the plug cap, ground it against the engine, turn the ignition switch on, and bump the starter. You should see the plug spark. Then reinstall the #4 plug, connecting the spark plug lead/cap. Now remove the #3 plug and repeat the process to be certain you have spark on it also. If you have spark on 3 and 4, then you should have spark on all four. If you have spark, the bike should start and run normally. We would now know the problem is not in the ignition system, but in the wiring and switches.

Let me know what happens and we can take it from there.

E.

I'm pretty stumped, earl (or anyone else!) have any suggestions on where to go from here? I will be going over there tomorrow afternoon to do any other testing I can think of.

[pasteurized]

Hey Earl, thanks for your time in replying! I actually just went over basically the same thing with my dad on the phone. He is pretty knowledgeable about points ignitions and crappy electronics systems, due to his experience with British cars in the past (has owned more than a handful of Triumphs and a few MGs). He explained the way that the points system works as far as how the electricity flows through it and it makes a lot of sense now, as I was kind of shooting in the dark before.

I will try your suggestion and at that point it will definitely be narrowed down a bit more. I'll report back tomorrow evening with the status.

Thanks again, I really do appreciate the comments and suggestions. If anything, it's really nice to know that someone else knows what I am talking about, and that gives me some courage in my attack :-)

[earlfor]

Once you understand how it works, it usually a simple thing to isolate and verify each compenent along the line is working. :-) We'll get you there, its just going to take a few checks and eliminations of possibilities. LOL
Lemme know.

E.

Hey Earl, thanks for your time in replying! I actually just went over basically the same thing with my dad on the phone. He is pretty knowledgeable about points ignitions and crappy electronics systems, due to his experience with British cars in the past (has owned more than a handful of Triumphs and a few MGs). He explained the way that the points system works as far as how the electricity flows through it and it makes a lot of sense now, as I was kind of shooting in the dark before.

I will try your suggestion and at that point it will definitely be narrowed down a bit more. I'll report back tomorrow evening with the status.

Thanks again, I really do appreciate the comments and suggestions. If anything, it's really nice to know that someone else knows what I am talking about, and that gives me some courage in my attack :-)

[pasteurized]

Ok, here is today's update:

Bypassed the ignition/kill switches by running a lead directly from the battery to the orange wire on each coil. Additionally, I ran leads from each point to its respective coil, essentially bypassing the wires that run from the points to the coils that snakes around the frame. No consistent spark. There were two separate times that I got spark from one of the plugs (#4), but it was not very consistent and once I let off the starter button, it would not fire again. I tried all the different plugs and was not able to get any spark out of any of them. This was in the garage with all the lights off, so it was pitch black. I was able to see some spark from the points but it was weak spark and it didn't seem very consistent. Tested the condensers via the resistance method and they both checked out just fine. The battery was pretty worn out from all the starter spinning after a bit, so we temporarily added jumper cables from a car battery (not a running car) to the bike's battery and even though the starter would spin quickly again, no go on the spark.

I guess at this point I would have to say both coils are shot. I don't know how both would die simultaneously. One more thing to throw into the mix is that I have an extra coil that we swapped in place of one of my bike's and it failed to show any spark as well. I don't know the status of this coil though, as it was a used piece that I have had in a box for a few years.

I wish there was something that would just shout out to me "order dyna coils!" and I would go ahead and do so. Normally I would have just bought Dyna Coils and a Dyna S ignition and done this right, but with my wedding a month from tomorrow, I want to be pretty dang sure that what I buy will fix it.

[earlfor]

OK, you're installed jumper wires fromthe battery to power the coils and jumper wires from the points to the coils. You have eliminated any possibility of it being a switch or wiring harness problem. You have added the battery capacity of a car battery with a jumpers and the electric starter spinning over quickly proves there is plenty of amperage available.
So............. The problem is either the pointsets or it is the coils.

I have a "birdie" in the back of my head telling me there is a possibility the rubbing blocks on the pointsets have worn down and your points are not breaking with enough of a gap. If you have spare replacement pointsets, it would be best to install them, gap and set static timing. If you dont have replacement points, gap the old ones and reset static timing.

Check the coil resistances. I know you said you tried and didnt get a good reading, but................ that doesnt tell us anything. LOL Set your multimeter to the ohms scale (looks like a horseshoe). Set it to the lowest scale that includes any value up to 6. The resistance between the terminals on a coil should be 5 ohms. A slight variance is not a problem.
Now set the meter to an ohm scale that will include a value of 50,000 (50K).
Check the resistance between the contacts in the 1 and 4 plug caps and then between the 2 and 3 plug cap contacts. The reading should be between 30,000 and 50,000 ohms (30-50K) If the coils are in this range, they should at least work long enough to start the bike. Old coils may break down after warming with for a minute or two, so the test does not guarantee good coils. If they coils are bad with good reading, they should at least function for a short time.

Check the point gaps and static timing first to make sure it is correct, then check coil resistances. If all seems within specs, it should start.

Lemme know. :-)

The cheapest way out of this mire probably would be to buy new coils and new points. The best solution is new coils and a Dyna S ignition.

E.



[quote=pasteurized;627916]Ok, here is today's update:

Bypassed the ignition/kill switches by running a lead directly from the battery to ............................................

[pasteurized]

Will do tomorrow, Earl. I do have a fresh set of points, but being that the ones on the bike are only about 8 months/500 miles old I had a hard time believing that they are problematic. I will be sure to check resistance between plug wires tomorrow. Checked the coil resistances tonight, and confirmed a constant 4-5 ohms on each coil. Guess all that's left to check is resistance between plug wires.

One other fun story from tonight: While removing the wire from one of the spark plugs, the contact from the inside of the plug wire completely fell out and apart. Got to take it apart and put it back together, but I guess this shows the status of the coils/plug wires as far as being pretty old.

As always, thanks again Earl. I think I will end up just biting the bullet and ordering those things, but I will check those couple of things tomorrow before ordering both.

-Brad

[MelodicMetalGod]

But...how did the horn play a role in all of this?

Hello all. I've been following this thread since yesterday (I would have contributed, but this problem seems to be currently beyond my expertise). I was interested b/c I've been considering upgrading the horn on my bike. I just read an article in the latest MCN that echoed the sentiements seen earlier in this thread that horn upgrades should pretty much always include a relay as well as a diode to ensure that current doesn't flow "back" into more vulnerable components. So I understand that the horn could have caused a problem with fuses, swithces, etc. Your troubleshooting seems to have you down to bad points or bad coils.

What I don't get is how the horn would have caused the issue? It's already been stated that points generally deteriorate slowly and I thought that coils generally would not be considered a "more vulnerable component". So what gives? #-o

If y'all get sec to explain this to me, cool, but don't let it hold up getting pasteurized the bike back up and running. Best of luck!

[pasteurized]

Well, I went ahead and bit the bullet and ordered green dyna coils, dyna wires, and a dyna s ignition. If you can't troubleshoot the system, just replace the whole damned thing ;-)

Ordered through z1 Enterprises, my first order with them. I have heard good things, but hopefully the order doesn't come TOO soon; I have finals next week and I am going to be really tempted to slap the new gear on the bike when I should be studying! Installing these seems like it should be pretty easy. The coils will just swap out and the ignition will take a little time but I can't expect the whole procedure to take more than a couple hours. Here I am justifying installing the stuff before I even have it ;-)

I will definitely give an update as to how it runs with the new Dyna stuff on it. I hope the higher powered coils and ignition don't in turn smoke my stator, which is stock as far as I know.

[earlfor]

I dont believe the horn caused the ignition system problems. I believe the battery was probably marginal and when the horn was used, it used enough battery amperage to lower the charge level of the battery such that there was insufficient amperage in the battery to power the starter and ignition/electrical system. Hence, no fire at the plugs. The plug caps falling apart internally at this exact time, was coincidental. Igniton and charging circuits are different/segregated circuits. The ignition problem may be correctable by snipping the ends of the plug wires, checking continuity/resistances and installing new plug caps if need be.

The battery should be closely monitored and replaced if it does not hold a normal charge level.

E.

So I understand that the horn could have caused a problem with fuses, swithces, etc. Your troubleshooting seems to have you down to bad points or bad coils.

What I don't get is how the horn would have caused the issue? It's already been stated that points generally deteriorate slowly and I thought that coils generally would not be considered a "more vulnerable component". So what gives? #-o

If y'all get sec to explain this to me, cool, but don't let it hold up getting pasteurized the bike back up and running. Best of luck!

[earlfor]

Congratulations! Whenever I am refurbishing a bike, I have found it always pays off in the long run to just bite the bullet and fix it well. Its a bite in the wallet, but once you have the new coils, wires and ignition system, you can pretty much forget about having to mess with it again.

The higher powered Dyna coils and new ignition system will have no negative effect on the charging system. Not to worry. :-)

The Dyna is pretty simple to install..........BUT! It appears sooooo simple that many people do not bother to read the installation directions. Then they end up here....................... LOL The Dyna "S" instructions are excellent and precise. Take the time to read EVERY word. :-) ..............and save youself a lot of frustration. eheheh

E.

Well, I went ahead and bit the bullet and ordered green dyna coils, dyna wires, and a dyna s ignition. If you can't troubleshoot the system, just replace the whole damned thing

Ordered through z1 Enterprises, my first order with them. I have heard good things, but hopefully the order doesn't come TOO soon; I have finals next week and I am going to be really tempted to slap the new gear on the bike when I should be studying! Installing these seems like it should be pretty easy. The coils will just swap out and the ignition will take a little time but I can't expect the whole procedure to take more than a couple hours. Here I am justifying installing the stuff before I even have it ;-)

I will definitely give an update as to how it runs with the new Dyna stuff on it. I hope the higher powered coils and ignition don't in turn smoke my stator, which is stock as far as I know.

[MelodicMetalGod]

earlfor, Thanks for the explanation of the diagnosis. Makes sense.

pasteurized, Looking forward to hearing how your new electrical components work out. Good luck!

[pasteurized]

Thanks! Got the parts installed today, but now it's time to replace the battery. I will take care of that tomorrow evening and see how she runs! I'll be sure to report tomorrow night.

earlfor, Thanks for the explanation of the diagnosis. Makes sense.

pasteurized, Looking forward to hearing how your new electrical components work out. Good luck!

[pasteurized]

So in looking back over some old posts, I realized that I never got around to replying. Not sure if I posted it earlier, but I also went out and got a new maintenance free Interstate battery before doing the swap of all the ignition stuff. After installing everything, I got spark (a LOT!) like I should, and it ran fine after that point. The bike still needs to have the carbs tuned, which will be done within the next couple of weeks. The coils and electric ignition were simple to install, and for the amount of spark and apparent efficiency I highly recommend the swap to anyone considering it.

[trippivot]

hooorayy good job
spark is an essential element
dyna is top quality

[dtkid]

Here is one that might be worth checking. This has happened to me three times.

The right hand control (throttle) which also possesses the wiring for the kill switch and front brake light was exposed to the handlebars (just underneath the kill switch). Over time the insulation rubbed off of one of the wires and shorted out with the handlebars. It might be worth taking off the throttle control and checking your wiring. The wires are often sorta crowded and twisted.

Just a thought.