Not head gasket... holed pistons!

[Road_Clam]

My next question is how was this bike running just prior to failing? Exactly what was the rpm's, and for how long? Did the engine behave like it was starving for fuel? Again, I am questioning the fuel....

[Fixxxer]

Immediately prior to failure, the bike seemed to be running fine. Roughly 75 mph in 5th gear, maybe 7000 rpm or so. I had been hearing some popping noises from the exhaust on decceleration, but the bike seemed to be performing great.

[Billy Ricks]

Did you ever hear any valve knock under acceleration, especially uphill or lugging the engine from low RPM's? It's that rattle sound you get when you twist the throttle.

[Nessism]

Fixxer,
Do you know what detonation sounds like? Lots of older american cars would exhibit this problem so many of us have experienced it. Basically it sounds like marbles are rattling around in the engine. Occurs when the engine is under high load - such as when going up a hill. Most likely to occur when lugging the engine. Based on what happened before you would do well to make sure to avoid this condition - obviously.

[Billy Ricks]

Immediately prior to failure, the bike seemed to be running fine. Roughly 75 mph in 5th gear, maybe 7000 rpm or so. I had been hearing some popping noises from the exhaust on decceleration, but the bike seemed to be performing great.

Popping on deceleration is from a lean condition. Either caused by carburation, timing, or both.

[Fixxxer]

Here's the other pistons, two and four, respectively. Do these pics shed any more light on the situation? Also, I don't recall hearing anything that sounded like those descriptions of detonation, at least not in the morning of the day the pistons went. However, at the time it actually happened, I was listening to my MP3 player, so if it developed at some point in the 30 minutes prior, I may not have heard it depending on how loud it actually is. But from what I could hear and feel, there were no indications that the bike was running poorly prior to the instant power loss.

[49er]

Here's the other pistons, two and four, respectively. Do these pics shed any more light on the situation? Also, I don't recall hearing anything that sounded like those descriptions of detonation, at least not in the morning of the day the pistons went. However, at the time it actually happened, I was listening to my MP3 player, so if it developed at some point in the 30 minutes prior, I may not have heard it depending on how loud it actually is. But from what I could hear and feel, there were no indications that the bike was running poorly prior to the instant power loss.

The piston in the right pic is so close to blowing through as well. That ash grey colour is the last sign before melting through. The crown rim near the inlet pocket has partially melted. The burn off rate/timimg of burnoff looks the likely cause of the extra heat.
Besides being a dangerous practise, listerning to music while riding can be very costly exercise.

[Suzuki mad]

Looks to me that the right hand one was about to expire and the left hand one is well on the way to melting point when the engine stopped.

Seems like you need 4 pistons and rings.

It would suggest that the lack of air filter, ignition timing and a fuel problem have caused this.

When she's rebuilt, check the fuel level in the float chambers, the engine's timing, stick an air filter back in and run her on some better grade fuel. Might also be worth your while cleaning and checking the oil pump too.

We run 95 octanes for Unleaded fuel here in the UK without problems.

Suzuki mad.

[Fixxxer]

Well, I won the pistons and block on ebay... Sure, new ones would have been better, but they're $40 each... $160 total vs. $7 for these. New rings will add $98, of course, but I'd still need to get rings if I bought the new pistons anyway.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ABCA%3 AUS%3A11&viewitem=&item=320131499956

Now, is there any reason I should use the block that these pistons come with, or is it ok or better to use the original block from my engine?

[petelardo]

Some things for you to think about...

To answer your question, examine both blocks; look for ANYTHING that doesn't seem normal. Check the cylinders; light scrapes can be honed out, but gouges will present new problems, and you'd need oversized pistons, so if you're not sure of what you're looking at, take BOTH blocks to the machine shop that will do the work, and ask them to advise you. If the deck isn't flat (might be warped from heat) or has other problems, you need to find out BEFORE you put money into it, so once again, do NOT rush this. The photo of the block shown on eBay doesn't reveal enough detail to make any call on it, so keep your options open.

Have someone knowledgeable examine the eBay pistons; right now, you don't know if they're actually serviceable or not. The crowns have a coating of carbon, so you won't know what you're dealing with until they're clean. The pistons need to be miked to be sure they are round, not ovoid; you have to be sure the ring grooves aren't damaged, and that they're structurally sound before you can go any further, so don't have any work done on your original block until the pistons have a clean bill of health. If even one is defective, you'll be dead in the water until you get a replacement.

KEITH KRAUSE has mentioned that the plugs don't seem to show the effects of a severe lean condition, and he's right, but he ALSO mentioned that the condition of the plugs are really no help in diagnosing this, and he's right about that, as well...

I think most (hopefully ALL) of us will agree that detonation knocked the holes in those pistons; my thanks to 49er for reminding me of the term "dime detonation" to describe the damage to the piston crowns - my rusty old brain let me down while I was trying to recall it... Though we can't rely on the condition of the plugs to help us diagnose this, those holed piston crowns indicate that carbon buildup was NOT much of a factor here, if it existed at all.

As I've already stated, detonation will occur at a LOWER than expected temperature in the presence of a lean condition. Some may think that a lean condition will ALWAYS show piston slag welded to the cylinder walls, or some other CLASSIC (catastrophic) signs of a lean condition, but I want to emphasize once again that in the presence of a lean condition (as evidenced by the CLEAN piston crowns and cylinder walls, and the fact that the engine was run WITHOUT an air filter), detonation will occur at a LOWER temperature than it does under "normal" conditions. The resulting engine failure PREVENTS the TYPICAL damage we expect to see in a "classic" lean condition, when detonation is NOT a factor... The detonation occurred BEFORE the cylinder super-heated, which is why we DON'T see the "classic" signs of an extreme lean condition...

Logically, (as Keith mentioned) this is all water under the bridge; the damage has been done, and now Fixxxer has to make some decisions about how he wants to deal with this. I've been checking the pictures he posted recently, and those other pistons aren't too pretty, but I've seen worse...

Of course, this could be a LOT worse; at least no one got hurt... Not that I want to point out the obvious here, but so far, Fixxer has admitted to riding on a bald tire, and listening to music while riding, so maybe this breakdown will give him time to think about his attitude towards motorcycling while he rebuilds / replaces the engine. I imagine we've all lost friends who made bad choices while riding; I'd only had my motorcycle endorsement for four years when my friend Jeff was killed in August of 1986. The police report said he'd had ONE beer within one or two hours before the accident, and it must have been enough alcohol to affect his judgment, because he decided to ride anyway. He was only 21, the only son of a Chrysler worker who lived north of Detroit...

There have been others since then, but as smart as they were, they were all guys who did stupid **** around the clock, so I didn't have much hope for many of them surviving long enough to see the far side of 30... Jeff was the only one of us who didn't push his luck at every opportunity, but I'm still here, and he's not. Crazy as I might be, I've NEVER ridden impaired; he ONLY did it once...

Saturday I attended a birthday party for a little girl, who just turned five. She's the granddaughter of a friend who only began riding a few years ago. His older grandkids all wanted to know how many scars / broken bones I've acquired; the broken bones have all healed years ago, because I finally figured out what NOT to do on a motorcycle. Seems they were very impressed by the list: leg, ankle, five of eight fingers (no thumbs broken yet), collarbone, wrist, four ribs, dislocations of the knee, thumb, and OTHER wrist (I wasn't a very good dirt rider, and didn't always wear my gear)... The scars I COULDN'T show them are the ones I carry from attending the funerals of people I cared for, at least one of whom should still be here today...

Fixxxer, I still hope you'll find the time to post a photo or two of the cylinder head, so we can take a look at the valve faces... I realize you might have other things to do, but I'm sure many who are following this thread would appreciate it... In the meantime, I hope you'll think about life and death, especially YOUR life and death; what would your parents say if you were killed riding while listening to "music"? Do you think they'd be happy knowing that you died because you just couldn't live without an MP3 player torturing your eardrums for a few hours? How do you think your girlfriend would feel if you died that way? You can fluff up a coroner's body bag just as well as the next guy, but no one who reads this forum would consider that some type of accomplishment; we'd just list it as ANOTHER needless tragedy... the more cynical among us would say, "Darwin was right", and tell the rest of us that we should be thankful that you haven't fathered any children yet...

One thing OLD motorcyclists know is that the REAL music is in the RIDE; let's hope you start to rethink your approach to motorcycling and life, or you'll only be repairing the motorcycle to use as the instrument of your own demise... I'd like to think you'll learn from this and have a long, happy life, but that won't happen if you don't realize just how lucky you've been so far... Think about the pain your death would cause OTHER people... yes, I know, I'm asking a YOUNG guy to think about someone ELSE for a change, and I know what the odds are of that actually happening, because I was YOUR age a LONG time ago. While you're thinking, think about how unnatural it is for a parent to bury a child, then ask yourself if you REALLY want to make YOUR parents endure that kind of pain... Oh, wait, I forgot, I'M so OLD that I've completely forgotten that people YOUR age are indestructable, or at least, they THINK they are...

As you've already seen, you can only run a lean condition for so long... sooner than you think, there is a price to be paid for doing it. You can repair the damage to the engine, and replace the holed pistons; your family and loved ones will NEVER be able to repair the hole in their lives your death would cause. You need to think about the PAIN your death would bring to the lives of the people who love you; that pain NEVER goes away, and YOU would be responsible for the agony your family endures...

Motorcycling and life are risky enough; those of us approaching retirement age have had to learn the HARD way to minimize certain risks, to improve our chances of survival. If my brother (a cop) ever went on patrol without his vest, I'd KICK HIS ASS to make sure he didn't do it again. There are ENOUGH things you CAN'T control while riding; you don't have ANY control over the drinkers and the druggers who are driving on the same road with you, you can't control the weather, you can't control ANYTHING except yourself and your behavior, so please learn from this...

I have to wonder about something; you seem to have realized that riding on a bald rear tire wasn't the most intelligent thing you've done recently, but would you have ridden on a bald FRONT tire? Would you have taken a passenger with you, knowing you had a bald tire? I realize you haven't been riding very long, but if you don't have enough self-control to wait until you have a SAFE motorcycle to ride, maybe you should put that GS in storage for a while...

According to you, Michigan Tech is two miles past the end of the earth; according to me, the Cemetary of No More Second Chances is just a little ways past that... let's hope you learn enough from this that you don't end up taking an eternal dirt nap there any time soon... losing you is something none of us want to think about, so you need to give this some thought...

[jimcor]

To answer your question, examine both blocks; look for ANYTHING that doesn't seem normal. Check the cylinders; light scrapes can be honed out, but gouges will present new problems, and you'd need oversized pistons, so if you're not sure of what you're looking at, take BOTH blocks to the machine shop that will do the work, and ask them to advise you. If the deck isn't flat (might be warped from heat) or has other problems, you need to find out BEFORE you put money into it, so once again, do NOT rush this. The photo of the block shown on eBay doesn't reveal enough detail to make any call on it, so keep your options open.

Have someone knowledgeable examine the eBay pistons; right now, you don't know if they're actually serviceable or not. The crowns have a coating of carbon, so you won't know what you're dealing with until they're clean. The pistons need to be miked to be sure they are round, not ovoid; you have to be sure the ring grooves aren't damaged, and that they're structurally sound before you can go any further, so don't have any work done on your original block until the pistons have a clean bill of health. If even one is defective, you'll be dead in the water until you get a replacement.

KEITH KRAUSE has mentioned that the plugs don't seem to show the effects of a severe lean condition, and he's right, but he ALSO mentioned that the condition of the plugs are really no help in diagnosing this, and he's right about that, as well...

I think most (hopefully ALL) of us will agree that detonation knocked the holes in those pistons; my thanks to 49er for reminding me of the term "dime detonation" to describe the damage to the piston crowns - my rusty old brain let me down while I was trying to recall it... Though we can't rely on the condition of the plugs to help us diagnose this, those holed piston crowns indicate that carbon buildup was NOT much of a factor here, if it existed at all.

As I've already stated, detonation will occur at a LOWER than expected temperature in the presence of a lean condition. Some may think that a lean condition will ALWAYS show piston slag welded to the cylinder walls, or some other CLASSIC (catastrophic) signs of a lean condition, but I want to emphasize once again that in the presence of a lean condition (as evidenced by the CLEAN piston crowns and cylinder walls, and the fact that the engine was run WITHOUT an air filter), detonation will occur at a LOWER temperature than it does under "normal" conditions. The resulting engine failure PREVENTS the TYPICAL damage we expect to see in a "classic" lean condition, when detonation is NOT a factor... The detonation occurred BEFORE the cylinder super-heated, which is why we DON'T see the "classic" signs of an extreme lean condition...

Logically, (as Keith mentioned) this is all water under the bridge; the damage has been done, and now Fixxxer has to make some decisions about how he wants to deal with this. I've been checking the pictures he posted recently, and those other pistons aren't too pretty, but I've seen worse...

Of course, this could be a LOT worse; at least no one got hurt... Not that I want to point out the obvious here, but so far, Fixxer has admitted to riding on a bald tire, and listening to music while riding, so maybe this breakdown will give him time to think about his attitude towards motorcycling while he rebuilds / replaces the engine. I imagine we've all lost friends who made bad choices while riding; I'd only had my motorcycle endorsement for four years when my friend Jeff was killed in August of 1986. The police report said he'd had ONE beer within one or two hours before the accident, and it must have been enough alcohol to affect his judgment, because he decided to ride anyway. He was only 21, the only son of a Chrysler worker who lived north of Detroit...

There have been others since then, but as smart as they were, they were all guys who did stupid **** around the clock, so I didn't have much hope for many of them surviving long enough to see the far side of 30... Jeff was the only one of us who didn't push his luck at every opportunity, but I'm still here, and he's not. Crazy as I might be, I've NEVER ridden impaired; he ONLY did it once...

Saturday I attended a birthday party for a little girl, who just turned five. She's the granddaughter of a friend who only began riding a few years ago. His older grandkids all wanted to know how many scars / broken bones I've acquired; the broken bones have all healed years ago, because I finally figured out what NOT to do on a motorcycle. Seems they were very impressed by the list: leg, ankle, five of eight fingers (no thumbs broken yet), collarbone, wrist, four ribs, dislocations of the knee, thumb, and OTHER wrist (I wasn't a very good dirt rider, and didn't always wear my gear)... The scars I COULDN'T show them are the ones I carry from attending the funerals of people I cared for, at least one of whom should still be here today...

Fixxxer, I still hope you'll find the time to post a photo or two of the cylinder head, so we can take a look at the valve faces... I realize you might have other things to do, but I'm sure many who are following this thread would appreciate it... In the meantime, I hope you'll think about life and death, especially YOUR life and death; what would your parents say if you were killed riding while listening to "music"? Do you think they'd be happy knowing that you died because you just couldn't live without an MP3 player torturing your eardrums for a few hours? How do you think your girlfriend would feel if you died that way? You can fluff up a coroner's body bag just as well as the next guy, but no one who reads this forum would consider that some type of accomplishment; we'd just list it as ANOTHER needless tragedy... the more cynical among us would say, "Darwin was right", and tell the rest of us that we should be thankful that you haven't fathered any children yet...

One thing OLD motorcyclists know is that the REAL music is in the RIDE; let's hope you start to rethink your approach to motorcycling and life, or you'll only be repairing the motorcycle to use as the instrument of your own demise... I'd like to think you'll learn from this and have a long, happy life, but that won't happen if you don't realize just how lucky you've been so far... Think about the pain your death would cause OTHER people... yes, I know, I'm asking a YOUNG guy to think about someone ELSE for a change, and I know what the odds are of that actually happening, because I was YOUR age a LONG time ago. While you're thinking, think about how unnatural it is for a parent to bury a child, then ask yourself if you REALLY want to make YOUR parents endure that kind of pain... Oh, wait, I forgot, I'M so OLD that I've completely forgotten that people YOUR age are indestructable, or at least, they THINK they are...

As you've already seen, you can only run a lean condition for so long... sooner than you think, there is a price to be paid for doing it. You can repair the damage to the engine, and replace the holed pistons; your family and loved ones will NEVER be able to repair the hole in their lives your death would cause. You need to think about the PAIN your death would bring to the lives of the people who love you; that pain NEVER goes away, and YOU would be responsible for the agony your family endures...

Motorcycling and life are risky enough; those of us approaching retirement age have had to learn the HARD way to minimize certain risks, to improve our chances of survival. If my brother (a cop) ever went on patrol without his vest, I'd KICK HIS ASS to make sure he didn't do it again. There are ENOUGH things you CAN'T control while riding; you don't have ANY control over the drinkers and the druggers who are driving on the same road with you, you can't control the weather, you can't control ANYTHING except yourself and your behavior, so please learn from this...

I have to wonder about something; you seem to have realized that riding on a bald rear tire wasn't the most intelligent thing you've done recently, but would you have ridden on a bald FRONT tire? Would you have taken a passenger with you, knowing you had a bald tire? I realize you haven't been riding very long, but if you don't have enough self-control to wait until you have a SAFE motorcycle to ride, maybe you should put that GS in storage for a while...

According to you, Michigan Tech is two miles past the end of the earth; according to me, the Cemetary of No More Second Chances is just a little ways past that... let's hope you learn enough from this that you don't end up taking an eternal dirt nap there any time soon... losing you is something none of us want to think about, so you need to give this some thought...

and I think that's the longest post I've ever seen on these forums. :shock:

[49er]

and I think that's the longest post I've ever seen on these forums. :shock:

Geez and I thought I was being a little pointed about the music.
It's good that someone had the balls to spell it out though. I hope others will reconsider their attitudes too. As pointed out earlier, the lucky ones amongst us are the ones with the scares.

Back to the engine woes. If you don't follow petelardo's advice, you will end up having to re-build the engine a second time. If that's not an option, it will probably get sold on to some newbie as a "good runner".
Do yourself a favour and take your time. Do it right and enjoy the results for years to come.

[Fixxxer]

To petelardo: thank you for the technical advice, I really appreciate it, and that goes for everyone else on these forums. I do not, however, appreciate the lecture and insinuations about my intelligence, or lack thereof, and condescension toward me on account of my youth. Yes, I rode on a bald tire, yes, it was incredibly stupid. I've already admitted as much, and learned my lesson, so I'd appreciate a little slack in that regard. And, actually, I refused to ride two up until I got it replaced, to answer that particular query. As I thought I made it clear, I was not aware of the lean condition of the lack of air filter that was contributing to it, and despite what you seem to imply, had I known I wouldn't have pressed my luck with it. Finally, concerning listening to music while riding, I have no regrets about it; had I heard the detonation, I wouldn't have known what it was anyway (I'm young and stupid, remember) and would have kept riding since I was halfway home in the middle of nowhere and had little choice in the matter. Also, since I clearly believe myself to be invincible, just like every other assinine 22 year old, even if I had known I would have pressed on regardless, right? Anyway, I will continue to listen to music on long, boring rides in the future; I am not persuaded that it puts me in any extreme physical peril, as you are. I still have four other senses that are working at full capacity, as well as two mirrors and a head that swivels in both directions. Beyond that, riding with earphones in doesn't make me deaf; I can still hear a lot more than the music. I'm also not sure how riding impaired came into the picture, other than you being overzealous to jump to conclusions about me based on my age, a poor choice made in the past, and another that we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

All in all, I'd appreciate it if we could keep this thread technical in nature. The thanks I gave you at the beginning of the post were sincere, and I'd appreciate any more help you can offer in the way of getting my bike back up and running. Hopefully this won't be taken as a personal affront, because it's not intended to be.

Thanks,
Tim.