electrical system redesign

[beergood]

1978 gs750

Last winter I had a couple electrical problems, and they were further confused by some mods that the PO had done. Someone ended up emailing me a couple wiring harness diagrams, and I rebuilt my harness. It went fairly smoothly, but I still occasionally get some grounding problems.

I am also kind of annoyed by little features like if the switch that shuts of my lights accidentally gets flipped, the bike stalls. I also hate the rats nest that lives in my headlight bucket.

I have examined the diagrams, and I think I have a pretty good grasp on the inner workings of the system. I have decided to do a ground up redesign on the system. I might do it real soon, or wait for the inevitable winter tear down (were I will also hopefully be installing a new electric ignition system).

Here are my thoughts/ideas thus far:

Separate the system into too parts. One that is critical for engine function, and one that powers everything else. This way, if my horn shorts out, I can still run the engine.

Instead if having the starter and kill on the bars, I was thinking about putting two switches on the left hand side under the seat somewhere (hidden from the eye, but easily accessible). One that either triggers the starter relay, or possibly get rid of the relay entirely and just have it bridge to the starter. If I decided just to bridge directly to the starter I know that I will need to find a beefy switch to handle the current. The other would be an 'Oh Crap!' kill the engine switch. This would also get rid of a lot of wires running back and forth from the electrical board and the bucket. Also, the dash key would have no effect on this system.

The dash lock would be used to turn on the secondary system (lights, horn, etc.) and to lock the steering column.

I also don't currently run turn signals (don't need them in Michigan, and haven't found any that I like yet). I can't think of any reason to turn my lights off, so I don't need that switch (also, in this schema that is what my key would do). So theoretically I can get down to just two controls wired in, the horn and brights (and I have never had to use the brights).

I think if I do these mods correctly, I will have a much more stable system.

So finally, here is my question: has anyone on here done something similar? If so, how well did it work for you?

Also, I would like to ask anyone else if they have any suggestions/tips.

[82GS1100E]

I can't answer your question, but I have a few thoughts.

Please document everything you do for the rest of us and provide a diagram of the harnessing you come up with. I've rewired a few Harleys and a diagram of a "better than factory" way would have helped a lot.

Is it legal to move the kill switch from its normal position on the throttle side of the bar? I can't believe you don't have to have directionals where you live, I thought it was a federal thing for bikes manufactured with them...guess you learn something new every day. :???:

Personally, I would keep the starter relay. Short, heavier wires from a heavy duty relay would be more reliable than longer wires going to a remote switch, I would think. Just my .02

Again, take pictures and keep us posted!

[XJ1416]

I did something similar on my 1100EZ. I got rid of everything that wasn't essential except for my horn and lights. I was looking for a short one day and noticed that one of the wires of the stator went all the way up to the headlight and then back down to the R/R. That's when i said screw this and pulled it all out.

I got rid of the entire massive gauge cluster (except the tach), the turnsignal control box, the control box relay (this alone has at least 15 wires going in a out of it), the stock flasher, the kickstand light, gear indicator, and fuel gauge.

I used my fusebox to split up the systems, like you described. Now I can trace any system on the bike without using the wiring diagram. It's reliable and I know my bikes electical system from back to front now.

I'm not sure if your bike is grounded to the frame or not, but I would make sure to run every ground through a wire to the battery.

Good luck, it's well worth it.

[bwringer]

Just skipping the gear position indicator will eliminate several wires. I kinda like having it, though...

If you have inspections where you live, you'll want to be very careful about what you remove or change.

Here in Indiana, there are no inspections so well over half the bikes you see don't even have turn signals, and there are all kinds of goofy headlight setups.

What sources have you found for high-quality components, wire, terminals, etc.? The hot rod wiring stuff (fuseboxes, etc.) all seems to be rather bulky and unprotected for motorcycle use. Some of the marine stuff you'll find is weathertight, but huge.

[beergood]

There are no inspections in this state, although a cop can do an inspection after you are pulled over. Before I did any mods to my bike I checked Michigan's laws. All you need are a horn, a way to kill the engine, brake and brakelight, one mirror, and a headlight (passenger pegs, if you are going to ride with one).

I originally found the info on our Sec of State website, but here is another source:

http://home.ama-cycle.org/amaccess/laws/result.asp?state=mi

I haven't started looking for supplies. I am definitely going to look for better connectors. My business partner has a sailboat, and we are always working on it, so marine parts are a definite consideration. Here is the schematic I have worked up so far. I will probably throw some fuses in there as well.



I realize that there might be some confusion around the starter relay, one red wire overlaps another, it's not a junction. Also, I forgot to add the gauge light, but that isn't a big deal.

[beergood]

As you can see, that is considerably less cluttered than stock:

[bakalorz]

Well, you probably won't like this post, but here goes

1978 gs750
Last winter I had a couple electrical problems, and they were further confused by some mods that the PO had done. Someone ended up emailing me a couple wiring harness diagrams, and I rebuilt my harness. It went fairly smoothly, but I still occasionally get some grounding problems.

I am also kind of annoyed by little features like if the switch that shuts of my lights accidentally gets flipped, the bike stalls.

Rather than getting rid of this switch, fix it right. My light turns off yet my engine continues to run ... yours could work that way too.

I also hate the rats nest that lives in my headlight bucket.

I think you could probably get rid of (or relocate and make neater) the rats nest without getting rid of all the funcionallity

I have examined the diagrams, and I think I have a pretty good grasp on the inner workings of the system. I have decided to do a ground up redesign on the system. I might do it real soon, or wait for the inevitable winter tear down (were I will also hopefully be installing a new electric ignition system).

Here are my thoughts/ideas thus far:

Separate the system into too parts. One that is critical for engine function, and one that powers everything else. This way, if my horn shorts out, I can still run the engine.

I think this is a good idea.

Mine came that way from the factory, there is one main 15 amp fuse that disconnects everything, and is then split into 4 more 10 amp fuses that run only part of the system each (engine, lights, turn signals and indicator lights, auxillary)

Instead if having the starter and kill on the bars, I was thinking about putting two switches on the left hand side under the seat somewhere (hidden from the eye, but easily accessible).

Part of the reason the kill switch is where it is, is that if something goes wrong at speed, you can kill the engine without removing your hands from the handlebars ... relocate the starter if you must, but don't move the kill switch.

I personally think that the starter switch is in a convenient location too.
If the reason for moving it is theft deterence, how about just running the engine "enable" switch via the hidden switch. (where enable is switching the engine related contacts that were switched by the ignition key)

One that either triggers the starter relay, or possibly get rid of the relay entirely and just have it bridge to the starter. If I decided just to bridge directly to the starter I know that I will need to find a beefy switch to handle the current.

The relay handles a LOT current, you'll have a hard time finding a switch that will handle as much reliably (especially a momentary contact one)
I think messing with this system is likely to buy you LESS reliability. I wouldn't change this.

The other would be an 'Oh Crap!' kill the engine switch. This would also get rid of a lot of wires running back and forth from the electrical board and the bucket. Also, the dash key would have no effect on this system.

see above

The dash lock would be used to turn on the secondary system (lights, horn, etc.) and to lock the steering column.

I agree with this idea.

I also don't currently run turn signals (don't need them in Michigan, and haven't found any that I like yet).

Do what you like, but I'd get some temporary ugly ones till you find some you like.

I'm going the opposite of the way you are ... I am looking for really big extra bright taillights and turn signals to put on my bike.

Fugly as all get out, but It'll make it a bit harder for a brain dead cager to not see me or where I intend to go.

will it prevent morons ... no, but It will hopefully reduce the odds a bit.

But then I do "all the gear all the time", and other people ride without helmets ...

I can't think of any reason to turn my lights off, so I don't need that switch

Do a search for stator papers, see how often its mentioned in the forums ... then think about getting home from 100 miles out with no alternator ...

(also, in this schema that is what my key would do).

killing the headlight and tailight, while leaving the horn, turn signals and brakelight enabled is good to be able to do.

So theoretically I can get down to just two controls wired in, the horn and brights (and I have never had to use the brights).

I wouldn't get rid of the gear indicator or the lights for the speedometer etc either, its nice to see that stuff if you have to ride at night.

I think if I do these mods correctly, I will have a much more stable system.

I think you could do as well or likely better by more or less properly repairing the stock system.

The big problems with the stock system are not the switches or where things are located, but with using crappy bullet connectors, and some hinky frame grounding where they should have used actual wires.

To enhance reliability your best bet is:
Open every connector and inspect, if it has corrosion or is not tight, replace it. Use dielectric grease when you reconnect them.
Replace all bullet connectors with spade connectors (bullet connectors just totally suck)
Wherever a wire is grounded to the frame, check that connection and make sure it is clean, then reassemble using dielectric grease.
(but run a wire direct from the regulator ground to the battery ground, don't use the frame for this connection)

For the rest of your ideas:

I do think that splitting up the system into engine and other (or better yet: 1 - engine, 2 - headlight, 3 - tail and turn, 4 - other) is a really good idea.

I think moving some functions off the ignition key is an OK idea.

I think moving the starter switch is pointless but more or less ok

I think eliminating turn signals and dash lights is a bad idea.

I think moving the kill switch is a very bad idea.

I think trying to eliminate the starter relay is a very bad idea.

So finally, here is my question: has anyone on here done something similar? If so, how well did it work for you?

I'm probably going to eliminate my ignition key as well.
But I expect to be adding some other wiring not removing it (More lights, heater circuits, headlight modulator)

Also, I would like to ask anyone else if they have any suggestions/tips.

Get some turn signals, even if you don't legally have to ... \\/

[beergood]

Wow Bakalorz, you really did read my post. Thanks for your input, you definitely bring up good points.

I agree that the stock system can be made very reliable, but any engineer can tell you that the simpler a system is, the more reliable it is. That being said, a simpler and more reliable system is also not always the best system.

I think I agree with you about the kill switch, and I will most likely keep it on the bars. As for the starter switch, I rarely use it, I prefer the kick start. But relocating it is one wire that has to run up and down the frame, and reaching down to my side isn't any more difficult then stock. Ever drive a Saab? The key position is a little different (divider console instead of dashboard) but no more or no less convenient.

I have read the stator papers, I needed to when I first started to deal with my electrical problems. However, I don't remember how that applies to my bike shutting down when the lights are turned off. I guess I will have to look into that. I thought this model was designed to not be able to run with the lights off. There is a good probability that I am wrong about this.

As for separating running lights from signals and brake lamps, you also bring up a good point, but I am going to opt for one wire instead of two, and stay with my original plan. At least for now, I may change my mind.

I also seriously doubt that I will lose the starter relay, I was more or less thinking out loud on that one.

I long ago removed the wonky gear indicator (although I wired in a neutral light), but I do plan on retaining instrument lights, I just forgot to diagram them.

And you are way correct about bullet connectors. They are all going to be replaced/removed.

As for turn signals, we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Thanks again for the food for thought.

[bakalorz]

I have read the stator papers, I needed to when I first started to deal with my electrical problems. However, I don't remember how that applies to my bike shutting down when the lights are turned off. I guess I will have to look into that. I thought this model was designed to not be able to run with the lights off. There is a good probability that I am wrong about this.

If there's a switch and it does something (as opposed to an empty housing, or a switch thats blocked off) then you were probably supposed to be able to turn off the lights. I have a late 81 model 650 and I can turn them off (and sometimes do at long red lights)

What I was trying to say when I mentioned the stator papers was that there is a possibility that your charging system may die on you someday ... if that happens, its REALLY nice to be able to turn off your lights to get home

(or keep riding the bike for short trips and charging it with a plug in charger after)

I long ago removed the wonky gear indicator (although I wired in a neutral light), but I do plan on retaining instrument lights, I just forgot to diagram them.

Why is your gear indicator wonky ... I like mine ... \\/

As for turn signals, we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

I'd leave the switch and wiring in place but disconnected in case you change your mind or sell the bike though.

[beergood]

One of the three wires from the alternator run through the light switch. Although that can easily be changed.

I am going to leave the original controls on the bars, (at least for now) so all the buttons will still be there, I am just going to be cutting down the number of wires criss crossing the bike.

The gear indicator had a couple of shorts. I fixed them. I thought it was kind of a neat feature. Then when I removed the stock cluster and made my own simpler dash I was going to install it. I didn't get around to it (I did wire in a neutral light), and eventually just got used to not having it, and decided that I don't really need it.

If I ever decide on a set of signals it won't be too hard to wire them in.

[Planecrazy]

I was about to leave you a post very similar to Bakalorz's (Great Post!) but since he covered almost all the bases I'll simply add one important thought regarding the brights you say you never use...

I would STRONGLY suggest you not only keep the low/high beam switch, but keep it on "high" during the day. You accomplish two important things by doing so. First, the high beam makes you MUCH more visible to oncoming traffic during the day without irritating other drivers (especially since you've apparently removed other items (the turn signals) that would help make you more visible to other drivers. Second, by using your high beam during the day, you are preserving your low beam for use during the night, when you need it to be more reliable (and less irritating to oncoming traffic).

I have never had another driver flash their lights at me during the day, despite the fact that I use very bright Silverstar bulbs in my headlight. By contrast, at night the Silverstars will pretty much blind anyone who looks at them, so having a reliable low beam makes life much easier than being forced to use the high beam to get home after the low beam burns out at night (and Murphy's law states that you'll ALWAYS lose your low beam while riding at night ... I'm lowering this probability with my strategy, as well as riding safer during the day).

And I'll echo the thought that being able to turn off your lights when the charging system goes (and knowing our bikes, it WILL at one time or another) is HUGE!

One suggestion I might add to your plans would be to run one Heavy gauge ground wire from front to back (intersecting the battery, of course), and using a few insulated junction blocks (front and rear) to tap in to it, rather than using either the frame or a bunch of separate ground wires for each component. Then, if you have a grounding problem down the line you've eliminated a "spaghetti highway" of ground wires to trace and simplified the process for any given component.

I like your ideas, overall, save the criticisms Bakalorz mentioned which I agree with.

Good luck with it!

[beergood]

Alrighty, I am mostly done. At least it is running, and I am pretty happy with the results.

I went mostly with the harness design that I posted, with some slight changes.

Highlights:

4 wires now make the main backbone of the bike. A heavier gauge hot wire. A heavy gauge ground that is gounded to the battery. All other grounds are directly wired into this main ground. I have declared war on frame grounding (with the exception of the horn, for now). And two wires for the taillight.

All main charging and ignition wire connections have been soldered. Other systems (such as lights) may have some shielded splices. I think they are convenient, and have proven reliable enough in the past for use on non-critical systems.

I have kept the kill switch and the starter switch. The starter switch was moved down next to the battery box. I rarely use it, and it is still easily accessible where it is. This allowed me to use the old starter switch for the horn. I wired in a heavy duty three position toggle into my dash for light control. First position: low beams; third position: high beams; middle position: all lights off. This means I was able to lose my left hand controls, which cleans up the look of the bars considerable. The rear brake is wired into the main hot wire, so regardless of what I do with the light switch, that will power up the brake light. I also still have two lights wired on for oil pressure and neutral.

As for the horn, I bought a much louder horn from Murray's and wired that in.

I plan on upgrading to a dyna ignition and coils this winter, so I left the bullet connections directly attached to them stock, but I cleaned and greased them, so I think they should be okay. When the new system goes in they will be hard wired.

And now the pics:


The bucket, much less cluttered.


In the process of running wires. I used almost all new and heavier gauge wire. I think the horn and neutral/oil light wires were about the only things recycled.

[beergood]

Makers (you know who you are) should appreciate this: I needed to build an enclosure for the new starter switch. I went with the classic Altoids tin.


(switch is on the other side, I didn't take a good pic of it)

New handlebar/dash config:



Thanks for all that followed this project and provided advice.

[CA180]

I like what your doing with this, i was wanting to do this with my 550L. Can you answer me a question, if i cut all the other wire off of the gear indicator sensor, can I wire the nuetral wire direct to a light? It looks like thats what you did, but I wasnt positive. Also, do you have a re-done diagram from the finished redo?

[beergood]

I like what your doing with this, i was wanting to do this with my 550L. Can you answer me a question, if i cut all the other wire off of the gear indicator sensor, can I wire the nuetral wire direct to a light? It looks like thats what you did, but I wasnt positive. Also, do you have a re-done diagram from the finished redo?

If your gear indicator is like mine, then the wires are all grounds, which your trans alternates through. My neutral was the blue wire. So you will need that wire for grounding your light and another wire which you will run to power.

I will try to revise my schematic to reflect the changes that I made, however, the one that I posted is almost exactly what I did.