E85 Bike...why not me!

[duaneage]

Another byproduct of ethanol plants are horrible odors. Maybe they should locate them next to any organization pushing for more ethanol, like ADM's offices. Miss Fabulous has an extended thread or two on the ethanol plant being built in Dunkirk next to her house.

It takes many gallons of water to make a single galoon of ethanol. Depending on the type, it can require up to 18 gallons of water to produce a single gallon of ethanol. Ask the Sierra club about that.

[waterman]

Not to change course of thread but water is cheap, at least where I live. It doesn't have to be treated or very clean to make ethanol, the problem is that the waste water is fun to clean up, high quantities of organics, alcohol, etc. Plays havoc with most traditional treatment plants unless they are designed for ethanol.

Here in Ohio, it is nearly impossible to find gasoline that doesn't contain a minimum of 10% ethanol. Gas mileage stinks, eats old fuel lines in weed eaters, chain saws, mowers. Softs up plastic and rubber components of old carbs. Farmers like it, corn, beans, wheat at historic prices.

[duaneage]

There is an old saying that ethanol is made by mixing corn and tax dollars and heated by all the hot air from washington.

[gremlin]

we have a ethanol plant near my town. you can smell it few county's away. part of the deal for them to move here was thay got a few of the towns old water wells. strange since the town said thay were going bad and we needed new ones.

i know it does take a ton of natural gas, and water to run the plant. and a few chems that if thay started a fire i would need to evacuate the town. the ethanol plant has its own fire department and waste water treatment plant.

now for the fun part. corn and beans are taking over. seen a farmer cut out all his peach trees and apple trees to plant corn. fertilizer is made from natural gas. takes a lot of diesel to get the corn to the ethanol plant. then from the plant to the blending station. ethanol can not be piped long distances. so it can not go thew the gas pipe lines. you find all kinds of good info when you start looking at the whos, whats, ware and whens.

[duaneage]

The best part of this is MTBE was declared a ground water contaminant and we can't go back to it. Or rather, refiners COULD use it but then the enviromental groups could file lawsuits against them for polluting the environment. Congress could have exempted and protected them from lawsuits, after all they write laws for things like this, but I'm sure a lot of money was spent to make sure no such thing happened.

Here is the punch line: The Clean Air Act of 1990 MANDATED the use of MTBE in areas the EPA determined to have bad air quality.

GM runs these commercials about how all these cars are E85 ready when you can't buy it in most places, funny how they don't post mileage figures for a Yukon running on E85. A Ranger PU gets about 14MPG on the stuff, what does a 5000 lbs SUV get on corn?

[Steve]

... funny how they don't post mileage figures for a Yukon running on E85. A Ranger PU gets about 14MPG on the stuff, what does a 5000 lbs SUV get on corn?

OK, since GM doesn't talk about it, let's go to someone who is not afraid to do that...Consumer Reports.

Here is a report testing mileage and performance on a Tahoe (same as a Yukon).


.

[duaneage]

The fuel economy of the Tahoe dropped 27 percent when running on E85 compared with gasoline, from an already low 14 mpg overall to 10 mpg (rounded to the nearest mpg). This is the lowest fuel mileage we’ve gotten from any vehicle in recent years.

They didn't even spit on it first with that one.

The FFV surge is being motivated by generous fuel-economy credits that auto-makers get for every FFV they build, even if it never runs on E85. This allows them to pump out more gas-guzzling large SUVs and pickups, which is resulting in the consumption of many times more gallons of gasoline than E85 now replaces.

And Ford does this too. It's dispicable enough they do it for the money but to brag about it in ads makes it worse.


Fuel economy, however, dropped across the board. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 to 7 mpg.

My parents Diesel truck pulling a 10000 lb motor home gets 10 on the highway, and 22 without. What would it get if we HAD to use ethanol. And believe me, such mandates are being discussed in places like LA and other large cities for the municiple fleets. They are already pushing alternative vehicles on the gov'ment workers. The nearest E85 station to me just happens to be in the DC area.

[drhach]

So, back to the original question. You probably would be best served installing EFI with a wide band o2 sensor. If you did that , you could program the unit for the stoichiometric point of blended ethanol. Honestly, it would get very complicated because you would need to switch the fuel system back and forth. If you don't have that flexibility, the bike will never run good. You'll either get it runnign good on E85 or E100. As was stated, the supply is so uncommon that you never know what you'll get. You're almost better off running it on straight alcohol using a dedicated system. Obviously this limits your ability to go anywhere further than the next alcohol supply. You could dedicate the bike as a commuter and fill up at home. In that case make your own ethanol (illiegal, but I won't tell).

As others have pointed out, you will see a decrease in fuel economy. This should be offset by cheaper fuel costs; but it isn't. Here in Illinois the gas is pumped up with ethanol in the winter. Most people notice a drop in fuel economy over the winter.

As all projects go, you can do it if you have the money and the time. Plan to spend a lot of both on something that probably would ultimately disappoint you though. Unless your in it purely for the learning experience.

[gremlin]

::In that case make your own ethanol (illiegal, but I won't tell).::

if i rember right you can make your own ethanol at home. the catch is you got to get a permit from the goverment and pay them road taxes. if you use it on the road. yes thay will check your tanks and your milage. if you do a search you will find thay got some farmers for using biodiesel in there trucks. england has the fry police.

[Dave8338]

So, back to the original question. You probably would be best served installing EFI with a wide band o2 sensor. If you did that , you could program the unit for the stoichiometric point of blended ethanol. Honestly, it would get very complicated because you would need to switch the fuel system back and forth. If you don't have that flexibility, the bike will never run good. You'll either get it runnign good on E85 or E100. As was stated, the supply is so uncommon that you never know what you'll get. You're almost better off running it on straight alcohol using a dedicated system. Obviously this limits your ability to go anywhere further than the next alcohol supply. You could dedicate the bike as a commuter and fill up at home. In that case make your own ethanol (illiegal, but I won't tell).

As others have pointed out, you will see a decrease in fuel economy. This should be offset by cheaper fuel costs; but it isn't. Here in Illinois the gas is pumped up with ethanol in the winter. Most people notice a drop in fuel economy over the winter.

As all projects go, you can do it if you have the money and the time. Plan to spend a lot of both on something that probably would ultimately disappoint you though. Unless your in it purely for the learning experience.

Very well stated, thank you. As this is not going to be a daily rider and that it will never see temps below 45 degrees (and that will only happen when poor planning is in place on my behalf) temp starts should not come into play. The bike would be set up to only run E85, it is available at enough locations around here that a Sunday afternoon cruise should not run me into problems. As the following excerpt mentions:

We put the Tahoe through our full series of fuel-economy and acceleration tests while running on each fuel (see our test results). When running on E85 there was no significant change in acceleration. Fuel economy, however, dropped across the board. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 to 7 mpg.


You could expect a similar decrease in gas mileage in any current FFV. That’s because ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline: 75,670 British thermal units per gallon instead of 115,400, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. So you have to burn more fuel to generate the same amount of energy. In addition, FFV engines are designed to run more efficiently on gasoline. E85 fuel economy could approach that of gasoline if manufacturers optimized engines for that fuel.

I've always regretted converting my Mustang back to pump fuel and a couple cans of the "octo-add" type products, and it olny see's about 250-300 miles per year, I'de like to have a corn burner again. Here, E85 runs about $2.25 per gallon while dino-juice is going for $3.00 or more. It wouldn't matter to me if it cost more...it will only be a toy anyway. (Have to run the Suziki if I want to make it to work and back with any certainty) :-D

My two concerns are:
1. Will I have or be able to create enough ignition advance?
2. Will I be able to find or make gaskets and o-rings for the HARDLEY carb?

Part of the problem with the FFV's of today is that they need to be set up to run both E85 and unleaded. That will not be the case for this thing...E85 only (though I've read that E85 can contain less than the maximum amount of 85% alcohol by volume). Even at 70-80% alcohol, the bike will tend to run rich and thus remove the concern for pre ignition and hole'n a piston or two.

[jbs80106]

Do a google search on conversion...

there's a company out here in Denver that allegedly sells conversion kits for most cars, approach would be the same for a bike I should think however I don't know how readily available the parts would be.

IMO however, the E85/FFV scam is the same they use to convince people to buy a hybrid or an all electric vehicle. Yeah sure, you can fill up your FFV for some 25% lower cost here in Colorado than putting in regular unleaded, but when you also get 25% of the mileage out of a tank its a wash. Add in the extra they charge you at purchase for the FFV and you're in the hole from the beginning.

Same logic works for hybrids. Buy a hybrid varient of a car and pay some $4000+ more than the standard version. By the time you get close to breaking even on the gas savings you need to sink another 3000-5000 on new batteries (which are environmentally unfriendly anyway).

In the newest cyling mag I got, they did a ride test on an all electric motorcycle offering. Performance opinions aside, they did the math and figured they'd had to ride some 186,000 miles to break even between the cost of the electric motorcycle and a standard one getting 40mpg.

Do the conversion or buy FFV if you have concerns about the damage you do to the environment. Or plant a few trees each year to counter your carbon-footprint. Don't buy one with the idea of saving money. But still plant the trees!

Just my opinion....

[Dave8338]

Or plant a few trees each year to counter your carbon-footprint. Don't buy one with the idea of saving money. But still plant the trees!

Just my opinion....

Now that's what I'm talking about, right there! \\/

[drhach]

If you're doing E85 only, then it should be a matter of just rejetting the existing carb. I'm not sure what stoichiometric is for a blend. I'm sure someone knows. I think E85 will also give you some of the issue that straight Ethanol will, i.e. eating rubber fuel components. You may need to convert all of your seals to viton. Not sure about ignition advance. Give it a try and let us know how it goes. Most good things come from people doing things in spite of being told that they can't.

[Dave8338]

If you're doing E85 only, then it should be a matter of just rejetting the existing carb. I'm not sure what stoichiometric is for a blend. I'm sure someone knows. I think E85 will also give you some of the issue that straight Ethanol will, i.e. eating rubber fuel components. You may need to convert all of your seals to viton. Not sure about ignition advance. Give it a try and let us know how it goes. Most good things come from people doing things in spite of being told that they can't.

Been doing that my whole life! :? Even designed and built a floating brick sidewalk for one client who wanted to "dock" his sidewalk in the private pond and use it as a raft out to a small island / fire pit (complete with outdoor lighting and surround sound, and not sure but there was mention of a small bar being constructed out there. :shock:

[gremlin]

you must look at the conversion factor. each time you convert something to get a fuel you lose our in the end. for ethanol there are a ton of conversions. natural gas for fertilizer, fuel for the trucks to transport and tractors. more trucks to move the ethanol to the blending plant. then it takes natural gas to make ethanol. yes thay must heat up the vat and hold the temp to distill it a few times.