Any interest in a how-to for making LED turn signals?

[earlfor]

As the song says, "I'll be watching you".

Earl :-)

Two quick replies this late at night must mean something. I'll get to work on the instructions later this week (after I finish mounting the ammo cans and signals!:-D )

[Sparkster]

Sparkster, I would like to know all about the ammo boxes and how you are mounting them as well as the led signal lights.

Thanks for bringing the subject up!
Lee :-D

The ammo box question I can answer pretty quickly- it will be made from the same angle iron that I made the headlight bracket from as seen here:

Mounting to the frame will be at the same points as the Shoei bags and, in fact, I will use the mounts from those as a guide for bending the iron at the appropriate angles. Why not just reuse the Shoei mounts you ask? Because angle iron just plain looks cool in a rat sort of way. (That and I may just end up selling the Shoei's to turn a buck for more upkeep)

And here is how I've decided to mount the signals to the boxes:


I think it'll look pretty tight when I'm done. I promise a fully detailed PDF when the deed is done.

[biffington]

Apparently, a challenge in LED marker lights (apart from an efficient circuit that doesn't overheat) is designing a light that meets federal safety requirements for visibility.
I think they have to do with light intensity and angles of visibility.

(He also has a GS 550 he should be taking care of...)

Brother Dogma is right, there are lots of federal requirements for turn signals as well as all the other lamps on any vehicle. (he is also right that I don't take good enough care of my GS)

To start with, federal requirements set the size of the illuminated area of the lamp. Since you are retrofitting the existing lamp, you are covered there as long as the whole lamp lights up like with the bulb.

You should also consider the color of the LEDs. Just using yellow LEDs is not necessarily right. Sometimes the right color is called amber. You need to get LEDs that are in the 590 nm dominant wavelength range give or take 5 nm. (if they are listed in peak wavelength, then steer for about 597 nm give or take 5 nm. Digi-key and Mouser and Newark and Farnell sell LEDs that are in the right color range. (you can probably find the right color at Radio Shack, but I haven't actually looked.

Now for the hard part. Depending on the type of lens your existing lamp has will determine what sort of LED you put behind it. Some lenses are designed to take the light from that skinny little filament of the bulb and spread it all over the road. LEDs don't make light in that same skinny strip, so it is diffcult to get things to work right. This lens type will often have ring shaped optics with lots of sharp edges trying to collect the light and spread it across the road. With this type of lens, you will have a tough time getting things right. Sometimes those LED bulb things will work OK in this situation, but I have yet to see one that really makes a nice looking lamp. (OK, so that is opinion) The alignment is difficult because they make a very large source compared to the filament of the bulb, so you need to bring them closer to the lens. There is a limit to how close you can get before you aren't filling the lens. There are times you just can't get things to work out with this type of lens. Essentially you will end up trying to put a single wide viewing angle LED in the center of those rings at about the same distance that the bulb filament was, but just a little closer. This adjustment is finicky and difficult, but can be done. I made a lamp once that filled the lens well, and made a decent pattern, but I didn't measure it to see if it was bright enough so I don't know if I made a legal lamp or not. Normally, this will take a high power LED that will need heat sinking and driver electronics.

Occasionally, the OEM lamp designer will chrome the inside of the lamp housing so it acts like a collimating reflector. (essentially makes all the light rays as close to parallel as possible when they hit the lens) This arrangement makes the lens design easier because they can use what is called a pillow optic. (a bunch of little pillows across the lens) If your lens is covered with pillow optics, things are looking up. You want to find LEDs with as narrow a viewing angle as possible to simulate those parallel rays as best you can. You will need to set the LEDS up in a package a good distance from the LENS but spread out enough to fill the lens with those near parallel rays. You need to put a little space between the lens and the LEDs and fill the housing with LEDs at the same time. So just getting the brightest LEDs and filling the housing could make too much light. The key here is to fill the housing with LEDS so the parallel rays fill the lens.

To test things out, it is best to keep one bulb lamp as a standard. Mount it on your bench in the same orientation as on the bike. Mount your attempt at an LED lamp next to it with maybe 6 inches between them. Light them both up and stand back about 30 to 50 feet. They should look about the same brightness at this distance. The next step is important, but is often overlooked in LED lamp retrofits. Walk to the left and the right at that same distance and continue to compare the brightness of the two lamps. The LED lamp should stay as bright as the bulb lamp as you walk to the sides. (up to a 30 degree angle, but if you can get out to 45 it is better) The wider the better, because this is visibilty for you intentions to turn. (we all know the importance of visibility on bikes) It may take a half dozen tries to get the LED lamp as bright as or brighter than the bulb lamp at all the viewing angles. Once you get it right, you can then change over your reference lamp to LEDs. If you have limited space, you can mount the lamps on a pivot and have an assistant rotate the lamps instead of you walking around them.

If you have a flat lens, putting several of the wide viewing angle LEDs (±60°) in there and a few of the narrower ones (±20°) could make for a decent lamp. This is easiest to figure out because if you need more light on the sides, you add wide viewing angle LEDs. If you need more light in the back, you add some of the narrower viewing angle LEDs. A flat lens is rare, so don't get your hopes up. 8)

To sum up, you need to get the right color, fill the lens with light, and make sure you get equivalent output at the back as well as the off angles. This isn't a guarantee that you will make a legal lamp, but police officers don't carry photometers to test light output. They just pull you over for what looks like a dim lamp if they want to give you a hard time looking for a larger infraction. The steps above will get light where you need it so others can see you, and making it the same brightness or a little brighter than the bulb will make sure you are in the right ballpark.

For a personal bike modification, getting them to legal numbers is not a requirement, you just need to get them equivalent in appearance. The problem comes in if you are making them for profit. (liability requires that you do your homework and get things tested to prove you are making a legal lamp, otherwise you are risking a lawsuit)

Sorry for the verbose post, this is a complex topic that requires a lot of 'splainin

[Sparkster]

Brother Dogma is right, there are lots of federal requirements for turn signals as well as all the other lamps on any vehicle. (he is also right that I don't take good enough care of my GS)
...
...
Sorry for the verbose post, this is a complex topic that requires a lot of 'splainin

WOW:shock:

Thanks very much for the well-informed contribution. Here's what I've found after reading your post; my LED's are in the ballpark, at least as quoted from the seller:

Specifications:
Material: InGaN
Emitting Colour: Amber
Lens Type: Water clear
Reverse Voltage: 5.0 V
DC Forward Voltage: Typical: 1.9 V Max: 2.3 V
Wavelength: 585nm-590nm
Luminous Intensity MCD: Min: 40,000 mcd Max: 60,000 mcd
DC Forward Current: 20mA
Viewing Angle: 12±5degree
Lead Soldering Temp: 260oC for 5 seconds
Intensely Bright

And I THINK the lens for these is what I can only describe as flat. It looks nice right now but I think I may add more LEDs after reading your post. Here's what it's looking like right now:

[themess]

Brother Dogma is right, there are lots of federal requirements for turn signals as well as all the other lamps on any vehicle. (he is also right that I don't take good enough care of my GS)
...............
Sorry for the verbose post, this is a complex topic that requires a lot of 'splainin

Not at all verbose. Everything you wrote matters.

This topic comes up often, and I believe that the main reasons are that there don't seem to be any good aftermarket LED lights for direct replacements for turn signals, brake lights and general decoration. The need for information will continue until someone designs and builds good LED replacement lights, and publishes his design, construction methods, sources and part numbers in a manner similar to the carb rebuild series, or to what Brian Wringer and Basscliff have on their web sites.

[Kcwiro]

I wonder if you can post how much that cost you to make?... I have looked at other premade bulbs and am still 50/50 put so much in bike already and I am all for not wasting any excess on it... all that money in has to pay off one way or the other =)

[Sparkster]

Upon further consideration I don't think it's wise to put together the aforementioned how-to. I will put some pics and links up but let me go on record as stating that it will probably NOT meet the explained regulations. I feel comfortable that I'll be safe in the end but not comfortable enough to have a product anywhere close to what should be held up as though to say, "here! do this!" I always appreciate being educated by someone who knows, as opposed to those who pretend to know, so thanks biffington. I'd love to pick your brain over coffee sometime (I try to surround myself with smart people in the hopes that some of it might leak onto me).

And you're right about the light meters. The closest thing we cops carry for measuring light is the device that measures tint and not all agencies have those. Ours is too poor to buy them.

[Sparkster]

I wonder if you can post how much that cost you to make?... I have looked at other premade bulbs and am still 50/50 put so much in bike already and I am all for not wasting any excess on it... all that money in has to pay off one way or the other =)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/50X-10mm-SUPER-BRIGHT-AMBER-LED-LAMP-70Kmcd-50-Resistor_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ33713QQihZ022QQitemZ350023699337QQtcZphoto

$17 shipped for 50 LEDs, you might find fewer for cheaper
$20 for four used turn signals AND the headlight assembly (free if you're retrofitting your own existing ones)
$7-ish for a small sheet of plexi (I used this inside to mount the LEDs)
$7 for an electronic signal relay to replace the stock thermal relay that wouldn't trip with the LEDs attatched:

[Planecrazy]

Nice project, Sparkster, but my first thought looking at the pic was that the signals are sticking so far out from the bike that they might not last too long. You might want to reconsider their location and perhaps mount them behind the boxes rather than outboard. One advantage of mounting them behind is that you could then paint the backs of the boxes black and get better contrast when they're flashing.

Regards,

[Dogma]

Sorry for the verbose post, this is a complex topic that requires a lot of 'splainin

Thanks for putting that all together. I know how long it takes to compose a thing like that.

But of course this raises a couple questions (more, always more!). What is the correct color for a brake light, and what is appropriate modulation of the signal or brake lamps? I know the headlight modulator is a common bike mod, but what about a running light strobe on the tail? I have a small set of LEDs that strobe when my brake comes on. Would that kind of strobe be appropriate for the entire brake light or turn signal? I'm guessing anything that wouldn't be mistaken for emergency vehicles' signals should be allowed. Are there regulations that cover signal light modulation?

[Planecrazy]

Oh, one more thing ... I hope you've got new tires (at least the rear) on order ... yours looks from the pic to be well past needing replacement, Buddy! Remember, no matter how expensive new tires are you should consider them CHEAP insurance against disaster!!

When I first changed the tires on my 1100G (and went to Pirelli Sport Demons) it was literally as if I had replaced the bike with a brand new one! They were THAT much better than the hard old Dunlops I had been running. In my case the tires LOOKED fine but were very hard.

Ride Safe, and
Regards,

[Sparkster]

Oh, one more thing ... I hope you've got new tires (at least the rear) on order ... yours looks from the pic to be well past needing replacement, Buddy! Remember, no matter how expensive new tires are you should consider them CHEAP insurance against disaster!!

When I first changed the tires on my 1100G (and went to Pirelli Sport Demons) it was literally as if I had replaced the bike with a brand new one! They were THAT much better than the hard old Dunlops I had been running. In my case the tires LOOKED fine but were very hard.

Ride Safe, and
Regards,

Thanks for asking. When I bought the bike it came with a new rear tire. I'm waiting for warm weather to ride it to a shop and have it put on. I don't have the skillz for that, don't have a trailer, and don't feel confident riding a bike that big up a ramp into the bed of my little s10. But yeah, it's on the short list.

I have a small set of LEDs that strobe when my brake comes on. Would that kind of strobe be appropriate for the entire brake light or turn signal?

In Ohio most strobing or rotating lights are banned from civilian vehicles.

Ohio Revised Code 4513.17 C1 states:

Flashing lights are prohibited on motor vehicles, except as a means for indicating a right or a left turn, or in the presence of a vehicular traffic hazard requiring unusual care in approaching, or overtaking or passing. This prohibition does not apply to emergency vehicles, road service vehicles servicing or towing a disabled vehicle, traffic line stripers, snow plows, rural mail delivery vehicles, vehicles as provided in section 4513.182 of the Revised Code, department of transportation maintenance vehicles, funeral hearses, funeral escort vehicles, and similar equipment operated by the department or local authorities, which shall be equipped with and display, when used on a street or highway for the special purpose necessitating such lights, a flashing, oscillating, or rotating amber light, but shall not display a flashing, oscillating, or rotating light of any other color, nor to vehicles or machinery permitted by section 4513.11 of the Revised Code to have a flashing red light.

The exception noted in 4513.182 refers to vechicles transporting preschool children.

[Dogma]

In Ohio most strobing or rotating lights are banned from civilian vehicles.

Ohio Revised Code 4513.17 C1 states:


The exception noted in 4513.182 refers to vehicles transporting preschool children.

Interesting. So, strictly speaking, the headlight modulators are also banned. There seems to be a gap between law and enforcement where pulsing lights and the exhausts of certain V-twin bikes live...

[bakalorz]

I am also planning to convert to LED turn signals and brake lights.
I at some point found and read the FMVSS regs and I will (I believe) meet the regs.

I initially bought some of the 1157 and 1156 replacement bulbs of various types, but was not happy with any of them.
I eventually bought some replacement LED assemblies used on semi-trucks, and these seem to be bright enough and offer enough dispersion that I think they will increase visibility.
These are either 4 inch round or 2x6 ovals with a bunch (10 to 40 depending) of LEDs and a special driver circuit built in.
I bought them on e-bay for $10-20 each

I'll post more when I actually get anywhere with it.

By the way, re: the strobing lights ... there are some units you can buy that flash the brake lights 3 or 4 times initially when you hit the brakes, and then stay on solid ... I believe that is legal, and I intend to do it for my bike.

[Sparkster]

Interesting. So, strictly speaking, the headlight modulators are also banned. There seems to be a gap between law and enforcement where pulsing lights and the exhausts of certain V-twin bikes live...

I can only speak for myself, of course, but I tend to ignore bikers unless they are being stupid. Show me a wheely or some other dumb crap and I'll hook you up with numerous points on your license but other than that motorcycles don't exist when I'm in the uniform. The pulsing lights and the brake lights that flash a few times then stay lit don't bother be in slightest- it makes the rider safer and thats all that matters.