Starter, starter relay or......?

[Anonymous]

OK, here's what I did

I had some problems starting so I decided it might be a good idea to take out the starter and clean it. To make sure (after having clean it) I took the starter to a starter rebuild shop to have it checked out. It seems to be working fine and I was told the brushes were still OK.
Problem is now the bike will not start anymore. When you push the button; you hear the relay click but the starter does not turn over.

I already did the following :
- I disconnected the clutch switch and wired it together
- I tested for voltage at the starter connection (with start button pushed in) and it seems Ok. It seems to have 0.5 Volts less than the battery (11.5v versus 12v). Is that reasonable normal ? The relay is clicking and I have voltage at the starter so that could not be the problem right ?
- I even tested the following : when you take the starter out of it's location but leave it connected and resting on the engine...it does turn over when the button is pushed. Of course this is without any load. With load it seems completely dead. Could this mean the starter has to be replaced or am I missing something obvious ?

Any suggestions ?

Digno

[bybowtie]

One thing you may check that the starter is going in properly.. sounds as if it is binding,, if not it coukd be a grounding issue

[Anonymous]

Also, eventhough it doesn't sound like the solenoid, with the starter installed use a screwdriver to bridge the gap in the terminals on the solenoid. This will skip the solenoid and send full power straight to the battery. If this turns it over, replace the solenoid. I guess it's what you've been calling the relay. I've always called it a solenoid. I'm guessing you've spun the engine by hand and know that the engine isn't siezed? This will cause the engine not to turn over 8O Also make sure the battery has a full charge... try jumping it off a car or something. Just because the lights SEEM bright doesn't mean you have enough juice to turn it over. Amps matter just as much if not more than volts. Just my ideas on the problem, good luck

[Anonymous]

Re: Starter, starter relay or......?

OK, here's what I did

I had some problems starting so I decided it might be a good idea to take out the starter and clean it. To make sure (after having clean it) I took the starter to a starter rebuild shop to have it checked out. It seems to be working fine and I was told the brushes were still OK.
Problem is now the bike will not start anymore. When you push the button; you hear the relay click but the starter does not turn over.

<snip>

Any suggestions ?

Digno

You say you've had the starter checked out by a shop, but it might be worth taking another look at it if another cause can't be found.

My GS850 starter showed these symptoms a couple of times before failing altogether. Stripped it down (easy job) and cleaned out years of grime and brush residue. After reassembly it did the same thing. Turns out one of the brushes (plenty of wear remaining) was sometimes binding in it's guide just enough to lift off the commutator by the merest fraction of a millimeter. Hard to describe in words - all it took was a few seconds work with a file and all fixed. A bench test was misleading because a slight bump with handling would knock the brush into position - but a tap on the starter case in situ wouldn't.

cheers
David
'82 GS850G

[Dink]

Digno you said in your post that you measured 11.5 Volts at the starter with the starter button pressed? If so you need to check and clean and tighten connections all over the place, the starter needs to 12 VOLTS minimum to work correctly, any less is wasting your time. Recharge your battery clean and tighten connections and start your tests again after the battery is fully charged.
Dink

[Anonymous]

All of you a big thanks for the comments,
I did some additional tests :

1) With a battery fully loaded overnight reading 12.35V I switched on the ignition switch. In a matter of seconds the battery voltage was reduced to only 11.65 V without having pushed the starter button. Is this the famous 'ignition switch voltage drop' ? If so, what can I do about it ? I already bought the Bosch relay but how & where do I connect it ?
2) With this 11.65V the starter did not start of course. I than connected starter cables to my car battery (with car engine running) thinking this would increase my battery voltage above the required 12V but the voltage on my bike, with ignition switch on, remained the above 11.65V.
3) I did bridge th egap on the solenoid. Of course with less than 12V nothing happened.
4) This might be a stupid question : is there some way I can directly connect the car battery to the bike starter to see if it turns over ? I can connect the + (red) cable directly to the starter, but where does the black (-) cable go ? Bybowtie mentioned a possible ground issue. How is the starter grounded anyway. When I took it apart I did not notice a black/white ground cable so I assumed the starter body itself, bolted to the engine, was the ground. Correct ?

Thanks,

[Anonymous]

Forgot to mention :
my 1982 GS 1100G does have a WINDJAMMER (with radio) installed. I assume this adds to the voltage drop with ignition switch on.

[moto_dan]

By you description it sounds like you have connection issues. Bridging the relay should have produced an audible click even with very low battery power. Check and clean your connections paying special attention to your grounds.

[bybowtie]

should be a ground bond on the housing...also any other ground breaks in the system will wreak havoc introuble shooting.. youd be suprised at how on loose wire can affect the whole elctrical system.. check all nuts and plugs before trying again you may be surprised

[Anonymous]

Refer to my post in the "cheap solenoid" section. My ground was only off by .002 Volts and it made a difference. Read a couple of tips there that you might be interested in.

Dave W.

[Anonymous]

You can connect jumper cables from your car directly to the starter. if the bike turns over then well you know your bike has a problom. But if it doesent well then you know its the starter, or ground on the starter. Oh and the negitive jumper cable conects to something medal liek your engen of your frame. I hope you are back out riding soon

[Anonymous]

Hope you don't mind but I have found this string very educational! I am changing my wife's starter this weekend and will have to keep an eye open for all these issues! Good luck with your starter as well!
GY

[Anonymous]

I promised an update so here I go :
First, as someone suggested, I tried to jump start the starter while still on the bike. It did not work. So in the end I decided to take out the starter again (which I hate to do because you need to take off the gas tank, air filter & carburator ). Then, with the starter removed from the bike, I jump started it directly connected to the car. The first time it turned over; the next few times it refused to do anything. So I figure there must be something wrong with the starter itself. I got it in the shop right now. We'll see what they find.

[kz]

I had a similar problem with my starter, the starter worked as should one time and the next time it didn't work at all.

I tried also a lot of the things described here.

I the end it was an intermittent short-circuit in the starter rotor itself, so I had to change the starter rotor and after that the starter works as should again.

If I tried to jump-start from my car, as the starter did NOT work, I could feel that the cables got warm due to high AMP consumption.

That could be a way to identify if you have the same failure.

[Anonymous]

Final update (as promised) :
One of you give me the tip to take out the starter and jump start it directly with some jumper cables from the car. The first try it turned over; the second it didn't. So it had to be the starter itself.
I had it refurbished. According to the shop the little springs were weakened by age and did no longer push the brushes hard enough against the rotor.
I got my refurbished starter back today, installed everything and...yes, we are back on the road !!!