Looking for advice on a starting problem

[rahlberg]

I've got a starting question that I can't seem to find any coverage on (probably b/c I'm not using the right search terms). Alas, that is why I am here asking. With this, I hope to accomplish two things: 1.) learn the correct terminology for future searches, and 2.) find the solution to my problem.

Anyhow, I have an 81 GS650 that I recently acquired. It was sitting for a while and now I'm in the process of cleaning her up and preparing to start it. I've got fuel running into the carb and when I hit the start button, the starter motor just cranks and cranks, but the engine doesn't come to life.

Here's what I know:
-I pulled the plugs (which are new) and grounded them to the cyl head and looked for a spark: None;

-I pulled and checked the Ignition Coil Wire for a spark by holding it about 1/8" from the head while starting it (per the Clymer instructions): I got a very small blue spark;

-I checked the voltage of the igniter to make sure it's getting power. Grounding my voltage meter and checking the highest voltage off the igniter wires (the black/yellow wire), I get about 10.1V. It could be higher, but I may be draining the battery (which is also new) from all the starting attempts. All the other wires are a much lower voltage.

-I tried the signal generator test like the Clymer manual says, to force the #3 and 4 plug to spark using the voltage from my Ohm Meter: Nothing.


So, I'm at a loss. It doesn't look like the plugs are sparking, so I'm thinking that it may be the igniter. But before I throw down any money for a new one, I want to try everything. Anyone have any suggestions as to what I could try or what may be the problem? Anyone got a spare igniter laying around they know works?

Thanks up front for all your help.

Russ

[8trackmind]

Voltage drop test

Whats' the volt reading at the battery?

What's the reading at the battery when you try to start it?

[rahlberg]

Voltage

The batt's at 11.9V. When I hit the start button, it drops to 10.4. Could it be the battery is just not supplying enough juice?

Russ

[BassCliff]

Hey howdy hey!

Mr. rahlberg,

I forgot to give you my "official" unofficial welcome. It's kind of a long post, but the information will save you hours of searching and asking questions.

A fully charged battery should read closer to 13v, certainly more than 12v. As for starting issues, do you have new plug caps? Have you cleaned every connection in your wiring harness? Start at the head light bucket and go all the way back to the tail light, under the tank and seat, cleaning all the bullet connectors. Do the same with the fusebox. Install good fresh fuses. Check the Stator Papers (link below) for electrical troubleshooting tips. And now, here's your welcome!

Let it be known that on this day you are cordially and formally welcomed to the GSR Forum as a Junior Member in good standing with all the rights and privileges thereof. Further let it be known that your good standing can be improved with pictures (not you, your bike)! :grin:

Perhaps you've already seen these, but I like to remind all the new members. In addition to the carb rebuild series, I recommend visiting the garage section via the GSR Homepage and check out the Stator Papers. There's also a lot of great information in the Old Q&A section. I have some documentation on my little BikeCliff website to help get you familiar with doing routine maintenance tasks (note that it is 850G-specific but many tasks are common to all GS bikes). Other "user contributed" informational sites include those of Mr. bwringer, Mr. tfb and Mr. robertbarr.

And here are some edited quotes from one of our dear beloved gurus, Mr. bwringer, with ideas on basic needs, parts, and accessories.

***********Quoted from Mr. bwringer************
Carburetor maintenance:

Replace the intake boot o-rings, and possibly the intake boots. Here's the procedure:

http://bwringer.com/gs/intakeorings.html

Here's an overview of what happens with this particular problem:

http://cycleorings.com/intake.html

You'll also want to examine the boots between the carbs and the airbox. There's a good chance these are OK, but check them over.

And finally, if things still aren't exactly right, you'll want to order a set of o-rings for BS carbs from the GS owner's best friend, Robert Barr:
http://cycleorings.com

Once you receive these rare rings of delight, then you'll want to thoroughly clean and rebuild your carburetors. Here are step-by-step instructions that make this simple:

http://thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm

***********************************
Every GS850 has (or had) a set of well-known issues that MUST be addressed before you have a solid baseline for further troubleshooting. It's a vintage bike, and it's quite common (as in, every single GS850 I have had contact with) that there are multiple problems that have crept up and slowly gotten worse over the years. It's not like a newer vehicle, where there's generally one problem at a time.

These common issues are:

1. Intake O-rings (install NEW OEM or Viton only - common nitrile O-rings will quickly deteriorate from heat)
2. Intake Boots (install NEW -- these cannot be repaired)
3. Valve clearances (more important than most people think)
4. Carb/airbox boots
5. Airbox sealing
6. Air filter sealing
7. Petcock (install a NEW one)
8. On '79 models, install new points or Dyna electronic ignition (or at least verify that the old points are working correctly)
9. On all models, it's fairly common to have problems with the spark plug caps. These are $3 or $4 each, and often worth replacing if you're keeping the stock coils/wires.
10. Stock exhaust with NO leaks or holes -- good seals at the head and at the junctions underneath.
***************************************
OEM Parts/Online Fiches:

I would definitely double and triple the recommendations to use Cycle Recycle II and Z1 Enterprises as much as possible. These guys are priceless resources. Z1 tends to have slightly better prices, CRC2 has a wider range of goodies available. If you're near Indy and can bring in an old part to match, CRC2 has a vast inventory of used parts.

http://denniskirk.com - Put in your bike model and see what they have.
http://oldbikebarn.com - seems to be slowly regaining a decent reputation, but it's still caveat emptor. They don't have anything you can't get elsewhere at a better price anyway.
http://www.babbittsonline.com/ - Decent parts prices. Spendy shipping. Don't give you part numbers at all. Useful cross-reference if you obtain a part number elsewhere. Efficient service.
http://bikebandit.com - Fastest. Middlin' prices. Uses their own parts numbering system to obfuscate price comparisons -- can be very confusing for large orders. Cheapest shipping, so total cost usually isn't too bad.
http://flatoutmotorcycles.com - Slow. Cheapest parts prices, crazy shipping costs. Don't expect progress updates or much communication. Real Suzuki part numbers.
http://alpha-sports.com - Exorbitant parts prices. Different type of fiche interface that's quite useful at times, especially with superceded part numbers. Real parts numbers. Shipping cost and speed unknown due to insane, unholy pricing.

Stainless Bolts, Viton o-rings, metric taps, dies, assorted hard-to-find supplies and materials, etc:

http://mcmaster.com - Fast, cheap shipping, good prices. No order minimum, but many items like bolts come in packs of 25 or 50. Excellent resource.
http://motorcycleseatcovers.com - Great quality, perfect fit (on original seat foam), and available for pretty much every bike ever made. Avoid the textured vinyl -- it's perforated.
http://newenough.com - You DO have riding gear, don't you? Great clearances, always outstanding prices and impeccable service.
***************End Quote**********************
Here are some extra parts links:

The Rice Paddy (salvage/used)
http://www.ricepaddymotorcycles.com
Ron Ayers Motorsports
http://www.ronayers.com
MR Cycles
http://www.mrcycles.com

Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed of your progress. There's lots of good folk with good experience here.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
(The unofficial GSR greeter)

[twistedwankel]

Here's what I know:
-I pulled the plugs (which are new) and grounded them to the cyl head and looked for a spark: None;

-I pulled and checked the Ignition Coil Wire for a spark by holding it about 1/8" from the head while starting it (per the Clymer instructions): I got a very small blue spark;

The spark is very hard to see in daylight across the plugs. And yes it is very petite compared to a car. Do it at nite or in a dark garage. Sounds like you have spark so you're back to fuel.

[rahlberg]

Thanks BassCliff. As an official junior member with all the rights and privileges thereof, I'm ready to exercise said rights and acquire the wisdom and expertise of such senior members.

I'll put the battery on the charger and get her up near 13V. Although it may have been there this morning before I tried firing it up a number of times. I'll go through all the connectors. Would it be worth replaceing them? I've read about replacing them with the spad connectors.

Mr. rahlberg,


A fully charged battery should read closer to 13v, certainly more than 12v. As for starting issues, do you have new plug caps? Have you cleaned every connection in your wiring harness? Start at the head light bucket and go all the way back to the tail light, under the tank and seat, cleaning all the bullet connectors. Do the same with the fusebox. Install good fresh fuses. Check the Stator Papers (link below) for electrical troubleshooting tips. And now, here's your welcome!

I may have missed the spark on the plugs. But I was able to see it during the daylight. I'll double check it tonight.

The spark is very hard to see in daylight across the plugs. And yes it is very petite compared to a car. Do it at nite or in a dark garage. Sounds like you have spark so you're back to fuel.

[Carter Turk]

Rahlberg,

Are you using full choke when attempting to start with no throttle blipping?

I've always had success bump starting my bike in 2nd gear with full choke when my battery is too weak to turn the starter.

I suppose also fuel needs to be getting to the carbs. Is the gas new?

[KRISTI'SGS550]

rahlberg,
in my experience even if the battery is 12v or higher with the key turned off, when trying to start the bike the bettery reads lower. Have you tested the battery with the key turn and bike ready to start to see if it reads higher than 12v?

[rahlberg]

Yes, I have full choke on.

You make a good point about fuel needing to get to the carbs. I know fuel is getting into it (i've pulled the line and checked the flow in). Although now I question whether fuel is leaving the carb. Is there a way to check this w/o pulling the float bowl or carb apart?

I figured it was the igniter b/c I wasn't seeing a spark on the plug.

Rahlberg,

Are you using full choke when attempting to start with no throttle blipping?

I've always had success bump starting my bike in 2nd gear with full choke when my battery is too weak to turn the starter.

I suppose also fuel needs to be getting to the carbs. Is the gas new?

I checked the voltage both with the key on and off and it's basically the same.

rahlberg,
in my experience even if the battery is 12v or higher with the key turned off, when trying to start the bike the bettery reads lower. Have you tested the battery with the key turn and bike ready to start to see if it reads higher than 12v?

[BassCliff]

If it ain't broke...

I'll go through all the connectors. Would it be worth replaceing them? I've read about replacing them with the spad connectors.

Hi,

I've been replacing the bullet connectors with spade connectors only when necessary. If they clean up good and make good connections, I'll leave them be. I have replaced the connections on the charging system between the stator and r/r. I have also replaced a couple of the bullets with spades where the bullet connections were corroded and broke.

Old wiring:


New wiring:


And don't forget to run a dedicated ground wire from your regulator/rectifier to the negative terminal of the battery.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[rahlberg]

Sucess!

So I went to the ol' auto parts store today and picked up some trusty starter spray (I know, I read all about this stuff, but I was desperate!). I shot that into the carb, hit the start button and she came to life....for a few seconds.:-D That's great news! I know she kicks over. Now I just need to clean up the carb to keep her running.

Thanks for all the advice and tips along the way. There's tons of info on here about the carbs, so I should be in good hands. But I'm sure I'll be back with something else later.

Thanks again,

Russ

[deathbydeathray]

im having this same issue

just got the bike has new bat. new fuel, blablabla it cranks like crazy and doesnt put a spit or anything i hope u figure this out so i can too!

[tomo]

Couple of tricks worth a try. First turn the petcock to the prime position, leave it a minute or so, then turn it to the normal run position. Pull on the choke then try to start her up. If that fails, my favourite trick which I`ve posted here before, is to try blowing a couple of times into each of the carb breather pipes, pull on the choke and try to start. This has nearly always worked for me.

[rahlberg]

I had the same problem and found out I wasn't getting a strong enough spark to light mine. So I did the relay modification listed on this forum which basically lights the plugs directly from the battery. Kicks over every time now! I also replaced the signal generator/igniter with the Dyna versio nfrom Z1. That made a huge difference as well.

Russ