gs 1000 rectifier

[peterhankinson]

hi can anyone tell me for certain is this a rectifier or a rectifier/regulator
the box says rectifier gs1000 the numbers on the side are ds16tes-l c7327
my mate says definately rectifier the chap i purchased it from said it would fit a gs850 recty/regulator who is right ? will it fit and work on a gs850, what other bikes will it fit, paid £40 for it so will have to resell on ebay and dont want to mislead anyone with incorrect info. its also smaller than the one fitted on my 850
thanks....peter

[posplayr]

Options Options and what is the right tool??

There would be at least a few ways to find out.

A.) identify the bike the part number comes (use that nice little software package) and check the schematic.

B.) install it on your bike with connections to the stator only, put a 12V load across it (like a headlamp) and measure the output voltage and or look at it with a scope to see how much regulation there is. If it goes to 15V plus at idle it likely not regulated.

C.) use a multi meter on ohm setting or diode tester to measure a forward (+ to -) connection between a stator input and the device ground (the ring lug) respectively.

If you look at the schematic (link below) you will see that if you apply a positive voltage to the stator inputs and measure return current from the ground that no current can flow if there is no regulator (the rectifier negative legs are reverse biased and the upper legs go to +V out.

If the regulator is built in you will see some current and probably get a beep from your diode tester and a variable 5-50K ohm impedance using an regulator control circuitry and the ohm meter sense current. Make sure the + side is attached to the stator input as you are relying on a reverse bias of the negative diodes.

d.) If the diode tester and ohm meter is confusing, then it would also be straight forward to take a simple 12V battery apply the plus side to the stator input and negative side to the ring lug and see if you are getting any current flow. You could do this with an milli amp meter or just see if there is a minute drop in the battery voltage when it loads the regulator circuitry. Basically this is what the ohm meter would be doing.

http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfacts.htm

Note I have not ever tried this, and I am assuming none of this will damage the part but. The safest thing other than doing parts research) is the ohm meter/diode tester as these settings will absolutely limit the current flow through the regulator (if it is there).

Posplayr

[Eli69]

it's a rectifier only. pre 1980 1000's had seperate regulators and rectifiers.

[salty_monk]

That looks identical to the rectifier on my 781000... different from the R/R on my 80.

I agree with Eli.

The RR is slightly bigger & has a mounting hole on both sides.

There's a guy on here sells Honda ones cheap enough or an aftermarket one is about 40-50 bucks. z1 enterprises has them.

Dan

Dan

[bakalorz]

.

<snipped stuff>

C.) use a multi meter on ohm setting or diode tester to measure a forward (+ to -) connection between a stator input and the device ground (the ring lug) respectively.

If you look at the schematic (link below) you will see that if you apply a positive voltage to the stator inputs and measure return current from the ground that no current can flow if there is no regulator (the rectifier negative legs are reverse biased and the upper legs go to +V out.

If the regulator is built in you will see some current and probably get a beep from your diode tester and a variable 5-50K ohm impedance using an regulator control circuitry and the ohm meter sense current. Make sure the + side is attached to the stator input as you are relying on a reverse bias of the negative diodes.

d.) If the diode tester and ohm meter is confusing, then it would also be straight forward to take a simple 12V battery apply the plus side to the stator input and negative side to the ring lug and see if you are getting any current flow. You could do this with an milli amp meter or just see if there is a minute drop in the battery voltage when it loads the regulator circuitry. Basically this is what the ohm meter would be doing.

http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfacts.htm

Note I have not ever tried this, and I am assuming none of this will damage the part but. The safest thing other than doing parts research) is the ohm meter/diode tester as these settings will absolutely limit the current flow through the regulator (if it is there).

Posplayr

The Stator page diagram is kind of representative, but not that accurate.

I am pretty sure that the above will not really work.

[posplayr]

bakalorz

>>>I am pretty sure that the above will not really work.

Well your comments prompted me to actually see if any of this worked. I don't have the R only device so I can only attest to the R&R results.

I tried:
a.) an OEM 1981 GS750EX regulator
b.) an Electrosport replacement for same
c.) a Honda replacement with the 5th sense wire.

Interesting results. I get somewhere between 11-22 Megohms forward impedance from the stator legs to the ring lug(as expected but more resistance). When I test between the stator inputs I get open as would be expected (that is what a full wave rectifier does).

However what is most interesting is that the Honda device does not appear to have a series regulator like the Suzuki or Electro sport models. Humm...... Maybe the Honda units are the best after all. Shunt reguation is something that would justify hanging the designer from his thumbs till they cried mama.

If in fact the Honda units have series regulation (the reason for the third leg) then they would be significantly better design and probably why they have such improved reliability.

Seek and yee shall find......

Posplayr


P.S with 11Mohm + the diode test did not trigger my Fluke 75 series DVM

[SqDancerLynn1]

If you compare the Honda reg to the Suzuki reg, what you will see is that the honda used a better ga of wire to start with

[bakalorz]

>>>I am pretty sure that the above will not really work.

Well your comments prompted me to actually see if any of this worked. I don't have the R only device so I can only attest to the R&R results.

I tried:
a.) an OEM 1981 GS750EX regulator
b.) an Electrosport replacement for same
c.) a Honda replacement with the 5th sense wire.

Interesting results. I get somewhere between 11-22 Megohms forward impedance from the stator legs to the ring lug(as expected but more resistance). When I test between the stator inputs I get open as would be expected (that is what a full wave rectifier does).

However what is most interesting is that the Honda device does not appear to have a series regulator like the Suzuki or Electro sport models. Humm...... Maybe the Honda units are the best after all. Shunt reguation is something that would justify hanging the designer from his thumbs till they cried mama.

If in fact the Honda units have series regulation (the reason for the third leg) then they would be significantly better design and probably why they have such improved reliability.

Seek and yee shall find......

Posplayr


P.S with 11Mohm + the diode test did not trigger my Fluke 75 series DVM

I am pretty sure that they are ALL shunt regulators.

Whether thats good or bad is harder to say.
I agree that it seems an inefficient way to do it.
On the other hand, done right, it is simple and works acceptably well.
(the Honda regs for example)

As an aside:
I have my suspicions that the problem with Suzuki's version is in the trigger part of the circuit; which in a way is not really part of the shunting circuit itself, but only drives that part of the circuit.

The generic figure from the Stator Papers does NOT correspond to the regulator internals from my OEM Suzuki manual.

The test you were suggesting is basically just doing half of the diode tests described in the stator papers ...
(And your indication for "it has a regulator" is their indication for "the diodes are shorted")

Assuming you don't trigger the SCRs, all you end up measuring is whatever the leakage of the trigger circuit is, which is fairly low (and unknown)(and don't forget that the bridge diodes have SOME reverse leakage too)

[posplayr]

bakalorz

I am pretty sure that they are ALL shunt regulators.

I think you are probably right although all designs are probably not the same. I rechecked my measurements and bad/corroded connections was giving me false measurements. I'll clean and report back.

Whether thats good or bad is harder to say.

I agree that it seems an inefficient way to do it.

On the other hand, done right, it is simple and works acceptably well.

(the Honda regs for example)

The primary issue with efficiency is that dumping electrical power (into heat) that you create with the engine power can only be explained by saving production cost. A Field control configuration would make much more engineering sense but probably is a bit more expensive.

Given the uncontrolled generator input, an improved design would use a chopping series design that would effectively open and close the load from the source and regulate power that way. That might be an EMI nightmare. I would assume if there is no load on the stator legs that there is no power being generated and therefore no mechanical power lost. The other more significant benefit of a modern chopping design is that it would have built in open circuit, short circuit load protection and over voltage/over current control. That would improve the susceptibility that the simple shunt regulator obviously doesn't have.

As an aside:

I have my suspicions that the problem with Suzuki's version is in the trigger part of the circuit; which in a way is not really part of the shunting circuit itself, but only drives that part of the circuit.

The "trigger" as you call it is the control so improvement based on current sense or separate voltage sense would improve the situation. Basically any error condition that can be sensed can be used to improve the control. The problem is that the shunt regulator can't really control the power generation it can only dump( shunt ) power to ground. If designed with proper power handling capability (and heat sinking) then it is probably pretty robust.

The generic figure from the Stator Papers does NOT correspond to the regulator internals from my OEM Suzuki manual.

I'm not sure which manuals you have but I have 4 different sources with essentially the same thing except the GS1100 uses a Darlington pair to get "crisper" on/off control than the zenor can provide and presumably better regulator/ripple control.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/gs750/GS750_Charging_R_R_750.pdf

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/gs750/GS750_Charging_R_R_3.pdf

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/gs750/GS750_Charging_R_R_1100.pdf

Given the detail of the schematics and the fact that they show the current flow paths and changes for the GS1100 I suspect that what they are showing is all that is in the regulator

The test you were suggesting is basically just doing half of the diode tests described in the stator papers ...

(And your indication for "it has a regulator" is their indication for "the diodes are shorted")

Assuming you don't trigger the SCRs, all you end up measuring is whatever the leakage of the trigger circuit is, which is fairly low (and unknown)(and don't forget that the bridge diodes have SOME reverse leakage too)

As you describe the test assumes that the leakage current of the rectifier diodes is much less than the control circuitry leakage current. When I first checked it it seems I had some really bad connection and so I will redo it and report back after I clean the terminals. This might not be a good test after all.

The wind is blowing (small craft advisory) and I gotta go now. \\/

Posplayr

[posplayr]

bump

bump bump anybody got comments on the OEM Suzuki schematics or what the really might be?

[bakalorz]

Sorry to reply so late, I have been sick and barely out of bed for two days

I am pretty sure that they are ALL shunt regulators.

I think you are probably right although all designs are probably not the same. I rechecked my measurements and bad/corroded connections was giving me false measurements. I'll clean and report back.

Whether thats good or bad is harder to say.

I agree that it seems an inefficient way to do it.

On the other hand, done right, it is simple and works acceptably well.

(the Honda regs for example)

The primary issue with efficiency is that dumping electrical power (into heat) that you create with the engine power can only be explained by saving production cost. A Field control configuration would make much more engineering sense but probably is a bit more expensive.

Well, yes and no ...
It absolutely would be more efficient, and better in the abstract technical sense.
But it would be much more complex mechanically. Mainly because you would now need brushes.

There are a few bikes that have field coil type alternators, but my understanding is that most use shunt regulators. Assuming most of the designers are more or less competent, that would seem to say that the advantages of shunt type regulators outweigh their disadvantages overall.

Given the uncontrolled generator input, an improved design would use a chopping series design that would effectively open and close the load from the source and regulate power that way. That might be an EMI nightmare.

There was someone on the GSR that built one (using a chopper regulator chip to drive it)

Said it worked fine.

Dunno why they are not used by OEMs. It may be EMI, maybe they have potential problems under some operating conditions, maybe because they cause stator voltages to be higher because its unloaded.

Or something else, may be just "thats the way its always been done and its worked fine till now" (Note that it DOES work fine on a lot of non GS bikes)

I would assume if there is no load on the stator legs that there is no power being generated and therefore no mechanical power lost.

The power lost is only the EXCESS power that you made and didn't actually need, the GSs don't make much excess (try to run some extra running lights and you'll find out how little)
Assume you are dumping 10 amps (thats probably too high, but we'll assume it anyway)
At 14 volts, that comes out to 140 watts. Thats somewhat less than a quarter of a horsepower.

The other more significant benefit of a modern chopping design is that it would have built in open circuit, short circuit load protection and over voltage/over current control. That would improve the susceptibility that the simple shunt regulator obviously doesn't have.

You're making WAY too many assumptions here.
Shunt regulators are inherently safe against open circuits and short circuit loads. The overvoltage is a matter of proper design (and the GS's is apparently not designed to cope with that)

But EITHER can be done right or done wrong.

As an aside:

I have my suspicions that the problem with Suzuki's version is in the trigger part of the circuit; which in a way is not really part of the shunting circuit itself, but only drives that part of the circuit.

The "trigger" as you call it is the control so improvement based on current sense or separate voltage sense would improve the situation. Basically any error condition that can be sensed can be used to improve the control. The problem is that the shunt regulator can't really control the power generation it can only dump( shunt ) power to ground. If designed with proper power handling capability (and heat sinking) then it is probably pretty robust.

I didn't explain this part very clearly.

What I was trying to say is that the problem in the Suzuki regulator may be in one of the darlington transistors and not the SCRs (the SCRs are the part that would need the power handling capability and heat sinking)

If you look at the "darlington" type schematic, what happens as the voltage goes somewhat higher than the trigger voltage. The current into the base of TR1 starts to go up. This is multiplied by the gain of TR1 and TR2 with no current limiting anywhere. So for a very small excess voltage you get way to much current out of TR2. On a running bike this is not a problem because the voltage will never get that high ... as soon as the transistors start to conduct, the SCRs are fired and the voltage drops, thus protecting the transistors.

But jump from a running car and you let the smoke out of TR2.

However, I don't know if they simplified the schematic and just didn't show some extra resistors that would protect against this.

The generic figure from the Stator Papers does NOT correspond to the regulator internals from my OEM Suzuki manual.

I'm not sure which manuals you have but I have 4 different sources with essentially the same thing except the GS1100 uses a Darlington pair to get "crisper" on/off control than the zenor can provide and presumably better regulator/ripple control.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/gs750/GS750_Charging_R_R_750.pdf

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/gs750/GS750_Charging_R_R_3.pdf

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/gs750/GS750_Charging_R_R_1100.pdf

I was wrong here. The schematics I have seen were all like the last one, and that was what I was refering to previously. I thought that all the GS's were like that one. I guess not ....

On the last one (the darlington schematic) your test would not work.

On the others it might or might not, depending on the resistance of the resistors and the leakage current of the diodes.

Given the detail of the schematics and the fact that they show the current flow paths and changes for the GS1100 I suspect that what they are showing is all that is in the regulator

The test you were suggesting is basically just doing half of the diode tests described in the stator papers ...

(And your indication for "it has a regulator" is their indication for "the diodes are shorted")

Assuming you don't trigger the SCRs, all you end up measuring is whatever the leakage of the trigger circuit is, which is fairly low (and unknown)(and don't forget that the bridge diodes have SOME reverse leakage too)

As you describe the test assumes that the leakage current of the rectifier diodes is much less than the control circuitry leakage current. When I first checked it it seems I had some really bad connection and so I will redo it and report back after I clean the terminals. This might not be a good test after all.

The wind is blowing (small craft advisory) and I gotta go now. \\/

Posplayr