RR neg to battery neg mod question

[posplayr]

The clues are stating to make sense

it goes from 2000k down to 200. When I short the leads at 200 it reads .7

So sound like you need to do a zero adjust on the meter when you have your test leads together.

Then with a zero adjust redo the stator comparisons. If you are reading 0.7 ohms just in the leads then the one high reading might actually be 0.8 ohms (1.5=0.7+0.8 ohms)

That would mean the other two legs are shorted out and congratulation you win a trip to the stator store.

Posplayr

[duaneage]

The stator can't damage the RR, although a RR can sure do damage to the stator, especially when a diode goes bad. Considering the work, mess and expense of getting the coils out of the side of the engine I would spin it up with the Honda RR, sacrifice a live chicken, hold the rabbits foot and throw salt over my shoulder and hope for the best.

If a lead shorts internally to another lead in a stator it can give bizarre resistance readings. I had a bad stator from a parts bike that read 1.4 ohms on one lead only, and .6 on the other two. I knew it was bad because the owner measured it with the engine running and only had about 20 volts coming from one pair. Really strange. The stator was burnt pretty bad, RR was a paperweight.

Since he had no money to fix it I ended up with it for a salvage price.

[posplayr]

Makes Sense

The stator can't damage the RR,

Yea that makes sense. Max current is max charging and that only happens when the stator is good and pumping on all three legs.

Stator shorts just reduce the stator current output.

An open Regulator will keep sucking current out of the stator on the other hand and over heat it break down the insulation and wala a winding short and no more stator output.

Posplayr

[bryan]

So sound like you need to do a zero adjust on the meter when you have your test leads together.

My multimeter is a cheapy. Not sure it has one? Maybe inside the casing? I'll have to check after work.

I noticed last night that the wires from the stator are copper and the wires from the RR LOOK like aluminum. The connectors I took off weren't original bullets, so the charging system has been messed with by a po.

I don't know much, but I know copper and aluminum cause oxidation. I wonder, could this have been the culprit in frying my stator and/or RR?

[posplayr]

Well according to the schematic

This is the subject of some discussion if not controversy.8-[

In theory ,if the parts are working correctly, then the charging system "should not" over charge, even with bad connections. In theory (i.e. according to the published schematics) bad connections will cause undercharging in most situations. Basically that is because the R/R is the source of power (and current flows from the R/R; this is why I was interested in the sign of the voltage drops between R/R and battery) and any drops are drops which reduce voltage across the battery.

There are some latent theories, that the Suzuki R/R (combo unit) has an internal defect (possibly layout of the bundled components), not shown in the schematic, that causes some type of sensitivity that will cause over charging. Good grounds seem to quell this charging issue. There is universal endorsement of good grounding to both the battery and the frame (I think).

Also in theory if the R/R Zener voltage reference can "loose" reference (i.e. break) and cause an elevated charging output then the R/R will basically stop working and the stator winding will produce full output as a function of RPM.

First Hand Experience, on my GS750, I had smoked stator wires connections (melted, stiff in the connction area) and smoked ground wire (all insulation gone) from R/R mounting plate to the battery and I caught the problem early enough to fix grounds/connections and have all of the original parts regulate quite well. So the parts are somewhat robust even if the design is not the best.

So in my mind it is clear that good parts and bad connections can cause an overcharge condition. How I dont know other than to blame the R/R for a design defect.

Posplayr

[duaneage]

The connectors were most likely a plated type that is compatible with copper. I think your RR died because Suzuki used inferior diodes and a small heatsink that was overworked. they should of had ShinDenGen build them instead of Nippon Denso. And they charge over 300 dollars for one at a dealer, what a rip.

[duaneage]

So in my mind it is clear that good parts and bad connections can cause an overcharge condition. How I dont know other than to blame the R/R for a design defect.

Posplayr

The Honda is rated at 450 watts and the Suzuki Stator puts out around 280, so it has way more capacity than the stator can dish out, this guarantees reliable operation. I got the specs from my cm400a manual, which uses the infamous honda rr that we all love.

[posplayr]

duaneage

I understand the Honda is a better unit and I even did a copper heat sink to provide better power handling capacity for my Suzuki R/R because I heard of people using computer fans to aid in the heat dissipation.

The point I was making is that I had a.) overheated connections between stator and R/R and b.) smoked ground wire between mounting plate ground to the frame ground wire and c.) cooked out battery (and if I'm not wrong definite over +16V charging voltage at RPM) all of which are clear indications of overcharging and there is nothing wrong functionally with the original R/R. I'm still running it on the bike and it acted just the same as a parts bike R/R with good looking wires.

The only component I changed was the electrosport stator and I made sure it worked the same way as the OEM after I installed it. Basically a disaster in process was averted to completely normal function ; restored with connections ONLY.

So moral of the story is that Over charging doesn't just happen when an R/R goes bad (gets hot and fails) because mine over charged and the R/R is fine. Cleaning connections and grounds solved the problem.

Posplayr

[duaneage]

If you push 15 amps at 14.5 volts through a connector with dirt, grease and corrosion the joint will develop a lot of heat. That is close to 200 watts continuously on the joint with no where for that heat to go.

If a diode fails inside the RR, then almost 250 watts or even 280 flows through the connector to the RR and then to the ground wire. The dead short caused by a bad diode burns the wires, the connectors and ultimately the Stator leg feeding it. Pure torture for the electical system.

[posplayr]

duaneage

If you push 15 amps at 14.5 volts through a connector with dirt, grease and corrosion the joint will develop a lot of heat. That is close to 200 watts continuously on the joint with no where for that heat to go.

I agree corrosion will make the connections hot and possibly melt the insulation without actually overcharging. The Power would be closer to 15 amps x 1 volt drop = 15 watts v.s. dropping the entire 14.5 volts; most of that still goes to the battery/electrical system

If a diode fails inside the RR, then almost 250 watts or even 280 flows through the connector to the RR and then to the ground wire. The dead short caused by a bad diode burns the wires, the connectors and ultimately the Stator leg feeding it. Pure torture for the electrical system.

Yes agree, a shorted diode on the output side is probably how Bryan is getting that positive drop (i.e. reverse current direction).

None of this explains overcharging with good parts and bad connections. Item #1 is likely in this scenario, but item #2 had not happened yet to my R/R; That is why I was attributing it to the mystery "design defect".

For Bryan #2 likely happened and over loaded his stator and the insulation broke down and shorted the windings. :shock:


Posplayr

[bryan]

R/R is here

Duaneage,

Got the R/R yesterday. Thanks.

I plan to install tomorrow. We'll see, but my readings seem to indicate I've fried one leg of the stator. It sounds like I won't be able to damage the Honda replacement R/R with a bad stator, though. So it's worth a shot.[-o<

I'm thinking about trying a rewound stator from Tim Parrott at www.tpe-usa.com. I'm not sure I'm capable or have the patience to do a rewind myself, and saving $40 or so bucks would help right now.

If anybody has a stator that they're willing to part with that will fit an 83 GS1100ES, please PM me.

[duaneage]

Don't forget to sacrifice a live chicken, very important.

A rewound stator should be OK as long as he knows what he is doing and I assume he does. The key is a better RR that doesn't pop the stator legs.

I'm toying with the idea of fusing the stator wires. I need to calculate what the currents are and add 10% to that to come up with a value. Three fuses on the stator leads might be a bit radical, but if it saves a stator leg it's worth it.

The only issue might be if one fuse goes, the increased load might open the other two fuses, completely unhooking the stator.

Like I said, it's only and idea and I need to test it. Stators are expensive and difficult to replace.

[bryan]

Duaneage, I'm afraid I'd really have to pilfer you for a lot more free advice, but I'd be willing to be a guinea pig on your experiment. If there is no damage that could result to the rest of the system, I go on short rides for now and I have roadside assistance on my insurance. As long as I wouldn't damage the new'ish RR, I'm all ears.

Edit: Oh, and I've already sacrificed two.

[duaneage]

It's late, but I'll measure the current through a leg tomorrow night and come up with something. The only difficult part is getting fuses of the right type and value. They need to be slo-blow types.

[posplayr]

duaneage

The cure for over current would be in the R/R design but is all else fails then three of these might be the ticket. As I recall it is basically like a fuse that resets after the current drops. The part heats up and the low resistance gets very high; when the part cools it comes back to a low Resistance state.

Three axial parts put together in series with each leg would provide the over current protection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyswitch

http://www.circuitprotection.com/auto.asp

Posplayr