R/R Help... Just need confirmation!!! Help!

[doctorgonzo]

May have already been discussed, but I burned out a R/R unit, replaced it, and 10 days later burned that one out too. The root cause was too much resistance in my wiring. A heavier gauge wire from the R/R all the way through to the battery and replacement of the 30 year old glass fusebox with a modern ATC one hopefully put an end to this problem. Every day for 3 or 4 days after the second replacement I would reach down when I stopped and feel every connection on the Pos wire between the R/R and the batery to see how hot it was, and it stayed very cool. The secondary benefit was the replacement of that old fuseblock literally made every one of my lights get brighter.

[Matchless]

Hi,
Martin if I have it wrong here please correct me. The older type of diodes we used were made of germanium and had a voltage drop of about .3 V across it. More robust diodes were developed using silicon and they have a voltage drop of .6V across them. Our rectifiers most likely have a .6 V voltage drop across each diode.
On the older analogue meters the resistance range was used to test a diode and you actually looked for very high resistance in the reverse direction and low resistance in the forward direction.
The digital meters we get nowadayshave a special diode test setting and puts a voltage across the diode, that shows the actual voltage drop as the reading. One way should show the forward reading as the voltage drop and the other way round should give no reading on the diode test. So if you are getting a reading on the diode test setting of .6 or 600 that would be Volt or milliVolt and indicate that the diode is working.
A diode test guide using an older meter or a newer meter could be confusing if your meter is not the same as the writers and vice versa.

[bakalorz]

Ok, Well lets see what I can do.

But at the same time, when I remove the Red R/R wire, it isolates it from everything else.... so why is it not putting out the voltage? I checked at the stator wires going to the R/R and I had good voltage.

When its isolated, its trying to charge "nothing", so the phase's voltage can go up very fast. This makes the SCR trigger WAY too soon. (the firing angle approaches zero degrees) After that, the SCR clamps till the phase reverses. So that phase basically doesn't charge at all ...
The other phase(s) do
The meter tries to average the undefined pulsing output.

Basically, you really can't get meaningful information with the red wire disconnected (without at least a scope, and even then ...)

I come from an electronics background. Looking at the diagram of the SCR, if the firing angle of the SCR is being screwed up by the zener diode (in the middle of the voltage divider circuit.... if I knew what those resistors were in that circuit I would probably have a better idea as to what the firing angle might be?), then you would probably get odd readings (which is what leads me to believe is wrong with mine). The rectifier is OK but the regulation part (as crude as it may be on this bike) isn't working 100%

You really can't say anything about it either way with what you've written so far.

Yes I understand that the bike will not charge if I remove this wire. I can tell you that the charging system does work partially.... One wire worked itself loose last night after I took it for a test spin and I had dim lights and it would barely run at idle. If I gave it some gas it wasn't as bad but it still ran like ****. So, the charging system is partially working but it still isn't giving me the 14 volts that I need in order to charge the battery and run the electrical system at the same time.

I'll have to go out to the electrical place here and get some spade connectors on friday and re-do all of the connections I can see. I still don't think it'll make that big of a difference though because, like I said above, my stator is OK and with the R/R disconnected I don't get 14V (even when it's revved up). I still think it's the R/R but I want to make sure. The bike still works but I dont want to go too far.

The disconnected readings mean absolutely nothing.

Very true. I've got to spend a few hours on friday and get this all said and done. We shall see how it goes.

The Clymers manual said to perform a no load test (ie: voltage off the stator wires). If the no-load test is good, then replace the regulator/rectifier to correct the low voltage problem...


duaneage, I'll probably end up contacting you on the weekend about this... I want to get some of the connections changed with spade connectors.

Thanks!

You've had one bad connection. To me, that makes all the rest suspect too. You can't even begin to troubleshoot till thats taken care of.

[bakalorz]

Hi,
Martin if I have it wrong here please correct me. The older type of diodes we used were made of germanium and had a voltage drop of about .3 V across it. More robust diodes were developed using silicon and they have a voltage drop of .6V across them. Our rectifiers most likely have a .6 V voltage drop across each diode.
On the older analogue meters the resistance range was used to test a diode and you actually looked for very high resistance in the reverse direction and low resistance in the forward direction.
The digital meters we get nowadayshave a special diode test setting and puts a voltage across the diode, that shows the actual voltage drop as the reading. One way should show the forward reading as the voltage drop and the other way round should give no reading on the diode test. So if you are getting a reading on the diode test setting of .6 or 600 that would be Volt or milliVolt and indicate that the diode is working.
A diode test guide using an older meter or a newer meter could be confusing if your meter is not the same as the writers and vice versa.

I would mostly agree with all that ...
The only additions I would have are:

If your meter doesn't have a dedicated diode test function, you will have to read the manual for it to see if it can be used to do it on a low resistance range, many probably can, some might not.

Also, the .6 or 600 is a likely value, but don't get hung up on it. It will depend on the current the meter uses and the particular diodes used.
I would consider any value from .3/300 to 1.5/1500 to be ok as long as all 6 diodes measure reasonably close to the same and the other way is an "open"

[Matchless]

Martin thanks for that as it seems a lot of confusion arrises when someone follows some of the guides and gets stuck testing a diode and the results deviate from the guide or the 1980 manual.
Not so many people are familar with the differences in such a test result related to the type of meter used. Basically as you said we just really want to see if there is forward conduction and reverse blocking in this case, specific readings are not important here. The absence of a dis or a short is all that we are really testing for.

[djscottymiami]

When its isolated, its trying to charge "nothing", so the phase's voltage can go up very fast. This makes the SCR trigger WAY too soon. (the firing angle approaches zero degrees) After that, the SCR clamps till the phase reverses. So that phase basically doesn't charge at all ...
The other phase(s) do
The meter tries to average the undefined pulsing output.

Basically, you really can't get meaningful information with the red wire disconnected (without at least a scope, and even then ...)



You really can't say anything about it either way with what you've written so far.



The disconnected readings mean absolutely nothing.



You've had one bad connection. To me, that makes all the rest suspect too. You can't even begin to troubleshoot till thats taken care of.

Makes sense about the voltage with the wire not hooked up. I'll check the R/R for heat tonight when it is running to see how hot it does get. I'll re-do the electrical connections or at least test them.

Anyone know where I can get a new-style fuse block? I'd really like to upgrade.

I'll post an update when I can.


Marc

[doctorgonzo]

Makes sense about the voltage with the wire not hooked up. I'll check the R/R for heat tonight when it is running to see how hot it does get. I'll re-do the electrical connections or at least test them.

Anyone know where I can get a new-style fuse block? I'd really like to upgrade.

I'll post an update when I can.


Marc

Got mine for $7.99 at Auto Zone. There is a write up on replacement in the "Tips and Tricks" Forum. The $7.99 model will have the circuits "ganged" together for a single hot, so you run a separate wire with an ATC fuse inline for the "always on" hot that went to your old box. The old fuse block will have a hot wire that is orange. It powers the lights, instrument panel, etc... you'll wire these through your new fuse block. Your old fuse block also has a hot wire that is the main line between the battery and the R/R unit. It gets the inline fuse. Look at the write up in the other forum.

[djscottymiami]

I would start by going over every connection in the charging path ...
Stator to R/R
R/R to fuse box
inside of fuse box at main fuse
fusebox to battery positive
R/R to battery neg (looks like you've done that one ...)

- Re-did the connectors between the stator and regulator/rectifier with spade terminals.

- Re-did the regulator/rectifier to fuse box connection with spade terminals

- Checked inside of fuse box at main fuse. Checked resistance between wire and fuse block and its ~0.2ohms. Found a loose wire in the back and re-soldered it.

- Cleaned the connection on the starter relay

- Turned the ignition switch to 'ON' then checked continuity between the RED wire going to the ignition switch and the fuse block that is switched from the ignition. The continuity is ~0.2ohms so that's good.

- Cleaned ALL of the fuse holders with an abrasive stick (sandpaper in bar form if you will for electrical contact cleaning).


Voltages (ballpark... i didnt bring a pen outside so this is off the top of my head.... dont quote them as being actual):

Bike Off: 12.6V
Bike running (idle): 12.5V
Bike running (some throttle): 12.4ish volts.

Also note that these voltages depend on how charged my battery is when I start off... It was higher when I started out this evening with a charged battery but went down as I tested it.

The voltage appears to go down when the bike has some throttle. An electrician that I work with came to look at it (he wants me to go out for a ride with him so he wants me to get er running! \\/) and noticed that the voltage goes down. He thought it might be a partial short but if it was i'd expect the battery voltage to go down when the ignition is 'ON' and the bike is not running. I checked the R/R when it was idling and it was slightly warm.

What other connections can I check Martin? This is really starting to get annoying. The more I look at it, the more i'm starting to think it is the R/R but i'd like to be proved wrong.

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH](*,)](*,)](*,)

[posplayr]

Use the volt meter not the ohm meter

- Turned the ignition switch to 'ON' then checked continuity between the RED wire going to the ignition switch and the fuse block that is switched from the ignition. The continuity is ~0.ohms so that's good.

- Cleaned ALL of the fuse holders with an abrasive stick (sandpaper in bar form if you will for electrical contact cleaning).


Voltages (ballpark... i didn't bring a pen outside so this is off the top of my head.... dont quote them as being actual):

Bike Off: 12.6V
Bike running (idle): 12.5V
Bike running (some throttle): 12.4ish volts.

OK Some simple EE; If you have 0.2 ohms between your R/R and your battery on the plus side, and there is about 10 amps being generated at 4000 RPM, then you are looking at a 2.0 volt drop with a stock 5 wire R/R (i.e. no sense voltage lead as the Honda R/R has).

You have to check the resistance by checking for voltage drop not using an ohm meter. Yes I know in theory it should be the same, but but given the electrical parameters (12 volts, 10 amps ), it is hard to insure that your resistance is in the 0.01-0.02 ohm range (where it should be and no more than 0.05 ohms !!!).

So unless you have a very accurate ohm meter, measure the voltage between R/R and battery on both the positive and negative sides. I know it is supposed to be just a stick of wire, but it is most likely showing more than 1 volt on the plus side and 0.5 volts on he negative (at least).

Also pay careful attention to the polarity of the voltage drops. You should have a voltage drop (0.25-0.5V max at 4000 RPM) going from the R/R + to the BAT + ; that means the R/R is charging the sysyetm. If it is negative, it is most likely the R/R is toast.

Posplayr

[djscottymiami]

So unless you have a very accurate ohm meter, measure the voltage between R/R and battery on both the positive and negative sides. I know it is supposed to be just a stick of wire, but it is most likely showing more than 1 volt on the plus side and 0.5 volts on he negative (at least).

I've got a Fluke 179... and from their website:

Resistance Accuracy* ± (0.9%+1) Max. Resolution 0.1 Ω Maximum 50 MΩ



I'd say its probably overkill compared to most peoples' meters.


POSPLAYR:
Just out of curiosity i dragged my meter out to the garage with me before I left for work today on the bike.

I hooked up the NEGATIVE lead of the meter to the output (red) wire from the R/R. I hooked up the POSITIVE lead of the meter to the battery positive. I got approximately 0.02 or 0.002 volts (Very low voltage and it was POSITIVE).

Just to see if I had a good connection to the R/R output I went to the battery negative terminal and got my 12ish volts.

My R/R sounds like it's not charging as there is no voltage differential?

[posplayr]

Sparks and Magic

I've got a Fluke 179... and from their website:

Resistance Accuracy* ± (0.9%+1) Max. Resolution 0.1 Ω Maximum 50 MΩ

That is a good quality Field meter, but as you have found the resolution is only 0.1 ohms. So as per the previous 10 amp output example, 0.1 ohms would yield 1 volt drop, 0.2 ohms would yield 2.0 volts drop and so on. So clearly using this ohm meter is not viable for determining resistance between the battery and the R/R . You need to use the volt meter function instead. 8-[

I hooked up the NEGATIVE lead of the meter to the output (red) wire from the R/R. I hooked up the POSITIVE lead of the meter to the battery positive. I got approximately 0.02 or 0.002 volts (Very low voltage and it was POSITIVE).

You are looking at some pretty low voltages so did you confirm the polarity reversed in the meter when you reversed the test leads?

Also stab the center of the + battery post and don't touch the clamping battery connector. This way you are measuring the drop across the battery terminals as well.

Also confirm the voltage at 4000 RPM as this is really when the charging system is being tested.

Assuming you did all of this then I would say that your system is NOT CHARGING. Next question is why not....

Just to see if I had a good connection to the R/R output I went to the battery negative terminal and got my 12ish volts.

My R/R sounds like it's not charging as there is no voltage differential?

Sorry, I have not followed this entire thread, so this maybe a repeat. Assuming you checked the stator output and are getting 60-80 VAC, then you should be seeing something coming out of the R/R.

Assuming you have stator output, the only other thing to insure is that the R/R output is not only tied to Battery negative, but also chassis ground. Assuming you have all of this then I would recommend swapping out the R/R. If you dont already have one it would be worth getting a Honda 6 wire unit.

Based on your previous readings you posted of 12.6-12.4 volts and declining, it sounds like you are just running on the battery and there is no charging going on. The slight positive voltage drop from R/R to Battery (battery higher) says that the battery is supplying the R/R output which is clearly not charging.

A note just to be clear for anybody else reading this thread: while ideally the battery to R/R positive terminals should be at the same potential (i.e. no resistance between them), this is practically an impossibility and some resistance >0.1 ohms (equivalent to less than 1.0 volts but should be less than 0.25 volts) always exists. We can take advantage of this parasitic resistance, by insuring that the voltage drop has the proper polarity and that the current flow when we are supposed to be charging (e.g. 4000 RPM) is dropping from R/R to battery (i.e. current flows from R/R to battery).

dsscotty, yours is indicating a discharge from the battery into the R/R output. With some stator output the R/R is the most likely culprit should be swapped out.

Posplayr

[MikeG]

[piggybacking on this thread]

I have a Shindengen r/r that says 5.9 on it. It has the wiring harness and a couple feet of good wire coming off that. Is there any reason not to use the harness? I'm thinking with some heat shring and dielectric grease, that's about as good a connection as I'm likely to get.

[djscottymiami]

That is a good quality Field meter, but as you have found the resolution is only 0.1 ohms. So as per the previous 10 amp output example, 0.1 ohms would yield 1 volt drop, 0.2 ohms would yield 2.0 volts drop and so on. So clearly using this ohm meter is not viable for determining resistance between the battery and the R/R . You need to use the volt meter function instead. 8-[



You are looking at some pretty low voltages so did you confirm the polarity reversed in the meter when you reversed the test leads?

Also stab the center of the + battery post and don't touch the clamping battery connector. This way you are measuring the drop across the battery terminals as well.

Also confirm the voltage at 4000 RPM as this is really when the charging system is being tested.

Assuming you did all of this then I would say that your system is NOT CHARGING. Next question is why not....




Sorry, I have not followed this entire thread, so this maybe a repeat. Assuming you checked the stator output and are getting 60-80 VAC, then you should be seeing something coming out of the R/R.

Assuming you have stator output, the only other thing to insure is that the R/R output is not only tied to Battery negative, but also chassis ground. Assuming you have all of this then I would recommend swapping out the R/R. If you dont already have one it would be worth getting a Honda 6 wire unit.

Based on your previous readings you posted of 12.6-12.4 volts and declining, it sounds like you are just running on the battery and there is no charging going on. The slight positive voltage drop from R/R to Battery (battery higher) says that the battery is supplying the R/R output which is clearly not charging.

A note just to be clear for anybody else reading this thread: while ideally the battery to R/R positive terminals should be at the same potential (i.e. no resistance between them), this is practically an impossibility and some resistance >0.1 ohms (equivalent to less than 1.0 volts but should be less than 0.25 volts) always exists. We can take advantage of this parasitic resistance, by insuring that the voltage drop has the proper polarity and that the current flow when we are supposed to be charging (e.g. 4000 RPM) is dropping from R/R to battery (i.e. current flows from R/R to battery).

dsscotty, yours is indicating a discharge from the battery into the R/R output. With some stator output the R/R is the most likely culprit should be swapped out.

Posplayr

I'll check the polarity reversal tonight when I get home with a fully charged battery (I put the key to 'PARK' in the ignition and 4 hours later I noticed that my rear light was left on.. so the battery is probably drained... it cranked over so it'll probably start when I get there).

I'm most likely going to be looking at replacing the R/R then if it's not charging. I'll do the test at 4000rpm as well as suggested above and see.. and i'll actually bring a pen out to the garage and write stuff down this time! :-D

[djscottymiami]

Ok, Here's the voltages that I have (red text = where my red multimeter lead was) :


BIKE OFF:
Battery: 12.25V
RR to Batt. (-): 12.25V
RR to Batt. (+): 0


IGNITION ON:
Battery: 11.93V
RR to Batt (-): 11.71V
RR to Batt (+): -0.2V
RR to Batt (-): -11.68V
RR to Batt (+): 0.207V



Bike Idle:
Battery: 12.21V
RR to Batt (-): 12.25
RR to Batt (+): 0.03
RR to Batt (-): -12.25
RR to Batt (+): -0.03


Bike Revved (4k rpm):
Battery: 12.13V
RR to Batt (-): 12.19V
RR to Batt (+): 0.013V
RR to Batt (-): -12.19V
RR to Batt (+): -0.02V

Bike back to OFF:
Battery: 12.18V
RR to Batt (-): 12.18V
RR to Batt (+): 0V


Bike is on the charger now.. hope this helps someone in helping me figure this stupid **** out. I'm getting ****ed off now.

[bakalorz]

I'll check the polarity reversal tonight when I get home with a fully charged battery (I put the key to 'PARK' in the ignition and 4 hours later I noticed that my rear light was left on.. so the battery is probably drained... it cranked over so it'll probably start when I get there).

I'm most likely going to be looking at replacing the R/R then if it's not charging. I'll do the test at 4000rpm as well as suggested above and see.. and i'll actually bring a pen out to the garage and write stuff down this time! :-D

You might also want to try the test posplayer suggested on the ground side.
Check to see how much voltage there is, testing between the black wire at the R/R and the negative post of the battery.

But its starting to look like your R/R is shot.
By the way, I wasn't trying to suggest that it absolutely wasn't at the beginning of the thread ... just that there were more things to rule out before you spent money on a new one.