Not because I plan on it, but E85...

[doctorgonzo]

As I said I have no plans to do it anytime soon, nor do I really want to debate the environmental pluses or minuses, but "What if" the time comes where we are forced to use a HIGH alcohol content fuel. What all would have to be changed just to not ruin the bike. All the rubber internals in the carbs... what could they be changed to.... Is there an alcohol resistant rubber? anything inside the engine proper? Jetting changes for the slow burning fuel... Just started thinking about it today and thought maybe the GS braintrust should start pondering it.

[psyguy]

dont worry

just stock enough petrol in the barn or sumthin'

[doctorgonzo]

just stock enough petrol in the barn or sumthin'

Good thinking, I'll start hoarding now!

[heathen]

we ran methenal in our jr dragster with makuni carb rubber parts held up good. so that should'nt be a problem just drain and clean once a year. we run e85 in my sons 71 camaro drag car. had to step up jetting 25% used existing fuel lines and pump. also had to go to custom metering blocks on holley carb with bigger passages. you can use rubber fuel lines with it. with e85 your milage will suffer about a 30% loss. probably have to go to a cooler spark plug too. one benefit of e85 is more power and cooler running. we changed my sons car to it because race fuel went to $8.50 a gallon.

[fallous]

we ran methenal in our jr dragster with makuni carb rubber parts held up good. so that should'nt be a problem just drain and clean once a year. we run e85 in my sons 71 camaro drag car. had to step up jetting 25% used existing fuel lines and pump. also had to go to custom metering blocks on holley carb with bigger passages. you can use rubber fuel lines with it. with e85 your milage will suffer about a 30% loss. probably have to go to a cooler spark plug too. one benefit of e85 is more power and cooler running. we changed my sons car to it because race fuel went to $8.50 a gallon.

Don't you really need to up compression in order to take proper advantage of alcohol as a fuel?

[Zook]

Yes, you do need to raise compression in order to get any efficiency from alky.
A friend runs P116 in one of his race cars, alky in the other. The alky car has about 15:1 compression.

Problem is you must burn almost three times the amount of alky as gas.
Yes the car runs cooler, in fact sometimes too cool. In cool temps you need to start the engine on gas then switch to alky.
And, due to the amount of fuel running through, it washes down the rings and contaminates the oil. This is where you must be careful. If using a dino oil you must change it every week. If using a "super refined" dino oil such as Mobil ! (it is NOT a true synthetic) the alky dilutes it badly and it, too must be changed weekly..
If using a TRUE synthetic such as Royal Purple you can drain the oil into a metal pan, flash off the alky and pour the oil right back into the engine. The alky does not dilute it.

Alky has less available energy than gasoline so to get equal power you must burn more of it.

Then there is the water factor. Alcohol is hydroscopic, meaning it attracts water.
I don't know about the E85 at gas stations, but alky race fuel is what is called, "wet", as it has lots of water already in it. It isn't 200 proof, or pure.
Water would freeze our gas lines in cold months.

Our engines would run like crap on E85 withou substantial mods.

[doctorgonzo]

That's the things, looking at what "substantial mods" would be required. Just thinking 5 years, 10 years from now. Like I said, no plan to do it, but if you were going to (for example pure dino hit $7.00 or $8.00 or $10.00 and high alcohol content was $3.00 or $4.00), the things you' have to do. So probably have to substantially up compression, and and oil becomes an issue.

[fallous]

That's the things, looking at what "substantial mods" would be required. Just thinking 5 years, 10 years from now. Like I said, no plan to do it, but if you were going to (for example pure dino hit $7.00 or $8.00 or $10.00 and high alcohol content was $3.00 or $4.00), the things you' have to do. So probably have to substantially up compression, and and oil becomes an issue.

I really think at the point that you're considering that, you start to consider switching powerplants and going with a diesel that can run off of waste oils and such.
Maybe a diesel/electric hybrid with battery pack as buffer between acceleration and sustained speed.

[Suzuki mad]

Here in the UK some bikes (early BMW K100 for one) run only on leaded petrol. As its no longer avaliable some companies came up with lead replacement additive.

It they go the way you are suggesting lots of people will be in the same place. Its likely then that an additive solution will be in palce before that happens.

Suzuki mad

[duaneage]

With Corn over 7 dollars a bushel I think the alcohol as fuel craze will be reined in shortly, I don't see it taking over.

[Zook]

Early K100s can't use unleaded fuel? Geez, most Jap bikes from the early 70s had hardened valves and seats...heck, even ditch pump Guzzis can run unleaded from the early 70s...are the Germans THAT stubborn?

It won't be practical to make all the mods to our engines to run alky...or economically feasible. There won't be any parts available.

[spchips]

A good overview

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/529759/Ethanol-as--Fuel-for-Recreational-Boats

Since it's carbureted, you would have to choose which fuel to run on, and jet for that.

You don't HAVE to increase compression, but if you plan on only running alcohol, it's worthwhile since alcohol doesn't detonate like gasoline.

elastomer material
Timing
Fuel metering (easy on EFI)

[Zook]

If you don't increase compression power and mileage will suffer due to the lower energy of the alky.

On the race cars we can run either gas or alky but have to jet way smaller and retard timing like crazy to go from alky to gas. And we use 116 octane racing fuel.

[duaneage]

Ethanol has about half the calories per gram as most formulas of gasoline. It also is hard to see burning, having a low blue flame. So if it spills and ignites you won't see it easily. Fortunately it is a little harder to ignite than gasoline, at least the vapors are.

Don't believe the hype around it being a super fuel. It has pros and cons like anything else. When it was 1.40 a gallon on the market it was more attractive. Now it can fetch 2.40 or more and the price fluctuates a lot.

Brazilians complain about the poor performance of ethanol in their cars, mainly because they are not optimized for it. Low compression and small motors combined with low fuel delivery means poor performance and high consumption. It also is not as cheap as gasoline once was, another factoid missing from the glory stories about "if Brazil can do it, why can't we" repeated a lot.

If your going to try and run E85 be prepared to double the fuel rates and deck the head a bit as opening processes. I would look into modifying the carbs extensively to flow at least 60% more fuel and using two petcocks on a tank. The byproduct of alcohol is water vapor, lots of it. The exhaust system will not tolerate so much water vapor forever so a stainless steel system should be used. The exhaust valves should be replaced with stainless steel as well to prevent corrosion on the stems.

[doctorgonzo]

Good stuff duanage. I'm just trying to get the info out there in case society collapses, and we have to go all mad max with stills in our backyards.