Noobie with a problem

[cwag459]

I have an 1985 GS 550L that will not start from the switch. I replaced the battery this spring, and after riding it for about a month I noticed it was getting weak, I checked the battery and found it to be low on fluid, so I filled it and charged it up. While I had it out of the bike, I noticed burn marks on one of the paper stickers on the side under the vent. I put the battery back after charging, all the lights worked as they should, but all I got was a click from the relay when I tried to start the bike. I thought the battery may have just been shot so I replaced it this morning, but I'm still having the same problem. I tried jumping the relay, but nothing happned. I took the covers off the started and it looks like the started is engaged to the gears (possibly stuck) I'm not sure if it should be this way or not. I have not checked the stator or the r/r yet, but I will when I have more time. It doesn't seem that would keep it from starting. If anyone could offer some guidance I would appreciate it greatly.

[Nessism]

Not sure about the starter but low battery fluid on a relatively new battery indicates the R/R has failed and the system is overcharging causing the fluid to boil off. Make sure you check the voltage per instructions in the Stator Papers found on the GSR homepage.

Good luck.

[chiphead]

Your starter motor may have locked up. Perhaps take it apart and see what's up. The "burn marks" concern me.

[BassCliff]

Hee Haw Howdy!

Hi Mr. cwag459,

Let it be known that on this day you are cordially and formally welcomed to the GSR Forum as a Junior Member in good standing with all the rights and privileges thereof. Further let it be known that your good standing can be improved with pictures (not you, your bike)!

Perhaps you've already seen these, but I like to remind all the new members. In addition to the carb rebuild series, I recommend visiting the In The Garage section via the GSR Homepage and check out the Stator Papers. There's also a lot of great information in the Old Q&A section. I have some documentation on my little BikeCliff website to help get you familiar with doing routine maintenance tasks (note that it is 850G-specific but many tasks are common to all GS bikes). Other "user contributed" informational sites include those of Mr. bwringer, Mr. tfb and Mr. robertbarr. And if your bike uses shims for valve adjustments, send an email to Mr. Steve requesting a copy of his Excel spreadsheet that helps you keep track of clearances, shim sizes and other service work.

These are some edited quotes from one of our dear beloved gurus, Mr. bwringer, with ideas on basic needs (depending on initial condition), parts, and accessories.
***********Quoted from Mr. bwringer************
Every GS850 (and most other models) has (or had) a set of well-known issues that MUST be addressed before you have a solid baseline for further troubleshooting. It's a vintage bike, and it's quite common (as in, every single GS850 I have had contact with) that there are multiple problems that have crept up and slowly gotten worse over the years. It's not like a newer vehicle, where there's generally one problem at a time.

These common issues are:

1. Intake O-rings (install NEW OEM or Viton only - common nitrile O-rings will quickly deteriorate from heat)
2. Intake Boots (install NEW -- these cannot be repaired)
3. Valve clearances (more important than most people think)
4. Carb/airbox boots
5. Airbox sealing
6. Air filter sealing
7. Petcock (install a NEW one)
8. On '79 models, install new points or Dyna electronic ignition (or at least verify that the old points are working correctly)
9. On all models, it's fairly common to have problems with the spark plug caps. These are $3 or $4 each, and often worth replacing if you're keeping the stock coils/wires.
10. Stock exhaust with NO leaks or holes -- good seals at the head and at the junctions underneath.
***********************************
Carburetor maintenance:

Replace the intake boot o-rings, and possibly the intake boots. Here's the procedure:

http://bwringer.com/gs/intakeorings.html

Here's an overview of what happens with this particular problem:

http://cycleorings.com/intake.html

You'll also want to examine the boots between the carbs and the airbox. There's a good chance these are OK, but check them over.
And finally, if things still aren't exactly right, you'll want to order a set of o-rings for BS carbs from the GS owner's best friend, Robert Barr:
http://cycleorings.com
Once you receive these rare rings of delight, then you'll want to thoroughly clean and rebuild your carburetors. Here are step-by-step instructions that make this simple:

http://thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm

***************************************
OEM Parts/Online Fiches:

I would definitely double and triple the recommendations to use Cycle Recycle II and Z1 Enterprises as much as possible. These guys are priceless resources. Z1 tends to have slightly better prices, CRC2 has a wider range of goodies available. If you're near Indy and can bring in an old part to match, CRC2 has a vast inventory of used parts.
http://denniskirk.com - Put in your bike model and see what they have.
http://oldbikebarn.com - seems to be slowly regaining a decent reputation, but it's still caveat emptor. They don't have anything you can't get elsewhere at a better price anyway.
http://www.babbittsonline.com/ - Decent parts prices. Spendy shipping. Don't give you part numbers at all. Useful cross-reference if you obtain a part number elsewhere. Efficient service.
http://bikebandit.com - Fastest. Middlin' prices. Uses their own parts numbering system to obfuscate price comparisons -- can be very confusing for large orders. Cheapest shipping, so total cost usually isn't too bad.
http://flatoutmotorcycles.com - Slow. Cheapest parts prices, crazy shipping costs. Don't expect progress updates or much communication. Real Suzuki part numbers.
http://alpha-sports.com - Exorbitant parts prices. Different type of fiche interface that's quite useful at times, especially with superceded part numbers. Real parts numbers. Shipping cost and speed unknown due to insane, unholy pricing.

Stainless Bolts, Viton o-rings, metric taps, dies, assorted hard-to-find supplies and materials, etc:

http://mcmaster.com - Fast, cheap shipping, good prices. No order minimum, but many items like bolts come in packs of 25 or 50. Excellent resource.
http://motorcycleseatcovers.com - Great quality, perfect fit (on original seat foam), and available for pretty much every bike ever made. Avoid the textured vinyl -- it's perforated.
http://newenough.com - You DO have riding gear, don't you? Great clearances, always outstanding prices and impeccable service.
***************End Quote**********************
Additional parts/info links:

GSR Forum member Mr. duaneage has great used upgraded Honda regulator/rectifiers for our bikes. Send him a PM.
New electrical parts:
http://stores.ebay.com/RMSTATOR or http://www.rmstator.com/

http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/index.php

http://www.electrosport.com/

For valve cover and breather cover gaskets, I recommend Real Gaskets (reusable silicon):
http://www.realgaskets.com
Carolina Cycle
http://www.carolinacycle.com
Ron Ayers Motorsports
http://www.ronayers.com
MR Cycles
http://www.mrcycles.com
Moto Grid
http://www.motogrid.com
Salvage/Used
http://www.ricepaddymotorcycles.com

http://www.ozpowersports.com/

If all else fails, try this:
http://www.used-motorcycle-parts.org/
Used bike buying checklists:

http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/Riderresc/checklist.asp

http://www.clarity.net/~adam/buying-bike.html
Lots of good info/pictures here:
http://www.suzukicycles.org
http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Motorcycle_Wiki
http://www.bikepics.com
Basic motorcycle maintenance/repair:
http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm
Online Clymer manuals:
http://search.ebscohost.com/ Click on "Small Engine Repair" then "Motorcycles". User=library, password=library. Note: This link may not work if you are on a school campus.

Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed of your progress. There's lots of good folk with good experience here.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
(The unofficial GSR greeter)

[cwag459]

I am getting an early start this morning. I'm going to tear into that starter and see what goes on there. If I can get it running I'll check up on the stator and r/r. I'll keep you posted. I'll probably be back here for info anyway.

[cwag459]

Ok, I haven't gotten anywhere with the battery issue, but I have gotten the starter off and I took a peek inside. It was very dirty, so I cleaned the insides and noticed one of the magnets was dislodged from its place on the casing. I think the dislodged magnet might have been jamming the starter. It seemd to turn ok by hand before I opened the casing, but sometimes it would jam up. After cleaning and resetting the magnet it seems to turn ok. The magnets seem to be held in place with epoxy, so I have applied some high temp stuff to the loose magnet as a temp fix until I can get a new starter. I'll let you know if it works.

[robertbarr]

I have gotten the starter off and I took a peek inside. It was very dirty, so I cleaned the insides and noticed one of the magnets was dislodged from its place on the casing. I think the dislodged magnet might have been jamming the starter. It seemd to turn ok by hand before I opened the casing, but sometimes it would jam up. After cleaning and resetting the magnet it seems to turn ok.

Nice job finding that. I've never heard of that failure before. Obviously the magnet will behave differently when there's current applied -- it will experience half as much torque as the armature, and maybe that pulls it even closer to the windings.

In my experience, these older bikes tend to boil away the electrolyte even when everything is working properly -- there's not much output at idle, so when you're sitting in traffic, you're probably drawing the battery down a bit until your r.p.m. picks up again. That constant charge / discharge makes it necessary to keep an eye on the level. (That's not to say you shouldn't check your R/R output levels).

I was never an advocate of the preventative R/R-ectomy until the night I joined the 'Unplanned Long Walk' club; now I think the procedure might pay for itself.

[Dave8338]

In my experience, these older bikes tend to boil away the electrolyte even when everything is working properly -- there's not much output at idle, so when you're sitting in traffic, you're probably drawing the battery down a bit until your r.p.m. picks up again. That constant charge / discharge makes it necessary to keep an eye on the level. (That's not to say you shouldn't check your R/R output levels).

I was never an advocate of the preventative R/R-ectomy until the night I joined the 'Unplanned Long Walk' club; now I think the procedure might pay for itself.

I would agree...the system on my 650 checked out (within speck but on the high side) and it is on it's third battery. This time I went with the sealed battery and after riding it a few weeks this spring, the R/R left home but didn't make it back. Now with the Honda R/R in place, the system is about as close to perfect as I can make it. Some have owned their bikes since new and are still running the stock R/R... just not sure how?

[tkent02]

Some have owned their bikes since new and are still running the stock R/R... just not sure how?

By cleaning grounds and wire connections before they can cause a problem.
Riding my 6th and 7th GS, all 7 have charged fine all the time.
Or maybe I'm just lucky.

[Dave8338]

By cleaning grounds and wire connections before they can cause a problem.
Riding my 6th and 7th GS, all 7 have charged fine all the time.
Or maybe I'm just lucky.

VERY valid point!!!!! Heat kills and the best way to rid the heat is to keep things CLEAN and greased!

[Zook]

Loose magnets are a common problem on many starters, especially ones made by Valeo for the later model Moto Guzzis.
Your starting problem should be fixed, now put a voltmeter across the battery terminals and wee what voltage you are getting while running. Any more than about 14.2 at speed is too much.

[cwag459]

Ok, I got the starter back in, and didn't have much luck. It cranked over weak once, then went back to just a click from the relay. I figured I'd check out the battery while I had the starter back in, so I bump started it and the charging system seems to check out from the battery. I got a resting voltage of 12.45 before I started, 12.85 at idle, 13.2-13.9 between 2000 and 3500 rpm, 14.40 at 4000 rpm, and 14.45 at 5000 rpm. So it seem like it's charging ok, and my issues are still with the starter. I'm going to pull it back out and try again. Thank you all for your opinions and sugguestions. Any and all help is greatly appreciated. I'll keep you posted as I go.

[Calvin Blackmore]

I am getting an early start this morning. I'm going to tear into that starter and see what goes on there. If I can get it running I'll check up on the stator and r/r. I'll keep you posted. I'll probably be back here for info anyway.

Did the magnet appear to be unglued from the casing?
I cant think of how you could have reset it and had it stay in place.

I think you need a new starter.

I also dont understand how it could have been dirty these things are sealed with o rings and if it was dirty it was residue from worn out brushes or worse from the magent being abraded by the armature.

[cwag459]

Did the magnet appear to be unglued from the casing?
I cant think of how you could have reset it and had it stay in place.

I think you need a new starter.

I also dont understand how it could have been dirty these things are sealed with o rings and if it was dirty it was residue from worn out brushes or worse from the magent being abraded by the armature.

The magnet was unglued from the casing, it would hold itself until I tried to put the armature back in place. I noticed it had been glued in place. Not being sure what to use, I used some hi temp epoxy to hold the magnet. The dirt in the casing was a fine blackish powder that removed easily. The starter was sealed so I am assuming it was from brush wear. They are still usable though.

I am having a new problem since I put the starter back. I checked when the starter was out, and I got 12 volts at the starters power cable. I put the starter back, and it cranks weak for a second like the battery is low. I checked the power cable again, and with the starter in it draws just over 3 volts, then starts to drop. Any ideas on this one?????