Help with UK GS1000 shim under bucket conversion

[Wraith]

Hi there folks. Just come across this site - looks great.

Wonder if anyone can help me with the above, which I'm having a lot of problems with. Found some mention of it in your archive posts but no specific detail as to what's needed, and I'm finding it very difficult here in the UK to find anyone who's done it or can supply me with the bits. It's kind of 3 steps forward 2-5 backwards at the moment!!!

I have a UK model 2-valve head GS1000 (1980 head, CV carb model) which I'm running on a big bore and with very "hot" cams and other mods.

To start off with, I was told that I could do the conversion (to stop it spitting shims as high revs) "very simply" by swapping over Z650 or GPZ750 turbo retainers and buckets (followers in the US?) - but the buckets turned out to be a little small in diameter. Problem solved by getting some specific GS APE buckets in from MTC Engineering in the US. (very expensive!)

I then purchased from a well-known performance tuning shop in the UK a set of APE titanium reduced-height top valve spring retainers to fit on top of my heavy-duty GS1000 valve springs (with standard Suzuki valves). This, they said, would do the job nicely.

Now, in the UK we don't seem to be able to get GS-specific tuning parts any more, so these retainers are from a Z900 - but it's apparently what all the Kawasakis use to do the shim under bucket conversion and, I was told, they'll fit the GS1000 "just fine". Hmm.....

But it still ain't working! When I fit it all together, the valve stem's top is sitting too low by about 2mm as regards where it needs to sit such that the shim then touches its top - i.e. the retainer seems to need to go further down or the valve stem is too short.

I am using Suzuki colletts, and was told that these would work, but wonder if I need Z900 or other after-market colletts - are these a different shape or thickness to the Suzi ones? (I know that the value stem diameter is the same on the Suzi and Kwak, but can't clarify the stem length. )

Alternatively, looking around in a few US catalogues on the net, they seem to refer to specific titanium retainers for the GS "shim under bucket": so are these different to the Z900 ones, and have I therefore got the wrong parts which aren't after all, interchangeable?

If so, any ideas where I buy the right GS-specific parts, and exactly what do I need? I had a look on the MTC web catalog and they only do shim under bucket retainers for the GS1100 (GSX1100 in the UK) not the GS1000.

Any help appreciated - it's driving me mad! Easy, they said. Common modification, they said... Only now, no-one can tell me how to do it. AAAAAGH!

Cheers for now.

[hampshirehog]

Did this with a mate on an EN many moons back and I'm racking my brains now but I'm bloody sure we just used Z650 parts, second hand of course and therefore as cheap as chips. I can't see why that should be any different for an ET. Are you sure you got Z650 bits that didn't fit? (I might be talking out of my backside though 'cos I also have a sniff of a memory that this might have had a Z head on it)

What's the plan for the bike? Racing / drag? If you're doing all the heavy top end stuff make sure that you weld your crank or else you'll be listening to Bill Haley - ie twisting.

[Wraith]

Yes, I do have a welded balanced crank. It's just a street bike, use-wise, but I'm looking at doing the under-bucket conversion as a precaustionary measure as I'm using 405 Andersen cams which are very "on off" on the lobes (Why? Coz they were there when the bike was first built...).

As regards the Z650 conversion, yes, I was told the same too, first off. Thought that I'd got a set off E-Bay but they never turned up and, despite what I'd have thought, they seem very hard to get hold of as a complete set, second hand.
Also, from asking on Old Skool Suzuki, when someone there had tried the same thing, they found that the buckets were 1/2 mm (?) diameter smaller, so would flop around inside the head - hence the purchase of the APE GS-specific buckets. (checked this with a motorcycle engineer, who measured the buckets and confirmed the difference).

If I could get some Z650 bits then maybe it'd be worth starting again at that point with my APE buckets (though the Z900 after-market retainers are meant to be the same as Z650) - just like really to find someone who's actually done it, whatever bits they've used, so I know what I'm talking about and exactly how it's done, using exactly what bits. Hearing a lot of people saying the same things, thinking that it can be done, etc, but no-one owning up to running a bike with it done!

My only thought at the mment is whether the Z900 collets (keepers) are different in thickness, angle and/or length to the GS ones, so that what's keeping the Z900 retainers from seating properly is the GS collets - and whether, then, if I used Z900 collets on Z900 retainers (or Z650 for both, as above) it'd all work...?

[hampshirehog]

I spoke to my mate about this and from what we remember (we were teenagers or may be 20 at the time - and that's a long time ago.....):

GS1000 barrels, Z1 or 900 head (may have been a Z1000 but probably not - wouldn't have been cheap enough), Z650 buckets and shims, CB750 SOHC (we think) retainers. Had to run on very thin shims we think.

You're right of course with the diameter of the buckets - although Suzuki copied Kawasaki very closely, which is why the heads swap over so easily, the Suzuki shims were 29.5mm as opposed to the Kawasaki 29mm.

[Wraith]

Cheers. I have some collets from a Z900 on order to see if thay fit. Wish me luck

[Big Jay]

You need KZ1000 keepers. Z1900 are for valves with square keeper grooves. You need thed round 1000 style.

I don't quite remember all of the details, but when people were racing the GS1000s, we did the conversion with the sob Susuki tappet and the rest was Kawasaki parts.

In your post, you mention getting APE short top retainers. We don't make a retainer that has a short top. Did these parts you received come in APE packaging?

Thanks

Jay

[BassCliff]

Hi Mr. Wraith,

Sorry, I can't help you with your mods. But I can give you my mega-welcome!

Let it be known that on this day you are cordially and formally welcomed to the GSR Forum as a Junior Member in good standing with all the rights and privileges thereof. Further let it be known that your good standing can be improved with pictures (not you, your bike)!

Perhaps you've already seen these, but I like to remind all the new members. In addition to the carb rebuild series, I recommend visiting the In The Garage section via the GSR Homepage and check out the Stator Papers. There's also a lot of great information in the Old Q&A section. I have some documentation on my little BikeCliff website to help get you familiar with doing routine maintenance tasks (note that it is 850G-specific but many tasks are common to all GS bikes). Other "user contributed" informational sites include those of Mr. bwringer, Mr. tfb and Mr. robertbarr. And if your bike uses shims for valve adjustments, send an email to Mr. Steve requesting a copy of his Excel spreadsheet that helps you keep track of clearances, shim sizes and other service work.

These are some edited quotes from one of our dear beloved gurus, Mr. bwringer, with ideas on basic needs (depending on initial condition), parts, and accessories.
***********Quoted from Mr. bwringer************
Every GS850 (and most other models) has (or had) a set of well-known issues that MUST be addressed before you have a solid baseline for further troubleshooting. It's a vintage bike, and it's quite common (as in, every single GS850 I have had contact with) that there are multiple problems that have crept up and slowly gotten worse over the years. It's not like a newer vehicle, where there's generally one problem at a time.

These common issues are:

1. Intake O-rings (install NEW OEM or Viton only - common nitrile O-rings will quickly deteriorate from heat)
2. Intake Boots (install NEW -- these cannot be repaired)
3. Valve clearances (more important than most people think)
4. Carb/airbox boots
5. Airbox sealing
6. Air filter sealing
7. Petcock (install a NEW one)
8. On '79 models, install new points or Dyna electronic ignition (or at least verify that the old points are working correctly)
9. On all models, it's fairly common to have problems with the spark plug caps. These are $3 or $4 each, and often worth replacing if you're keeping the stock coils/wires.
10. Stock exhaust with NO leaks or holes -- good seals at the head and at the junctions underneath.
***********************************
Carburetor maintenance:

Replace the intake boot o-rings, and possibly the intake boots. Here's the procedure:

http://bwringer.com/gs/intakeorings.html

Here's an overview of what happens with this particular problem:

http://cycleorings.com/intake.html

You'll also want to examine the boots between the carbs and the airbox. There's a good chance these are OK, but check them over.
And finally, if things still aren't exactly right, you'll want to order a set of o-rings for BS carbs from the GS owner's best friend, Robert Barr:

http://cycleorings.com

Once you receive these rare rings of delight, then you'll want to thoroughly clean and rebuild your carburetors. Here are step-by-step instructions that make this simple:

http://thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm

***************************************
OEM Parts/Online Fiches:

I would definitely double and triple the recommendations to use Cycle Recycle II and Z1 Enterprises as much as possible. These guys are priceless resources. Z1 tends to have slightly better prices, CRC2 has a wider range of goodies available. If you're near Indy and can bring in an old part to match, CRC2 has a vast inventory of used parts.
http://denniskirk.com - Put in your bike model and see what they have.
http://oldbikebarn.com - seems to be slowly regaining a decent reputation, but it's still caveat emptor. They don't have anything you can't get elsewhere at a better price anyway.
http://www.babbittsonline.com/ - Decent parts prices. Spendy shipping. Don't give you part numbers at all. Useful cross-reference if you obtain a part number elsewhere. Efficient service.
http://bikebandit.com - Fastest. Middlin' prices. Uses their own parts numbering system to obfuscate price comparisons -- can be very confusing for large orders. Cheapest shipping, so total cost usually isn't too bad.
http://flatoutmotorcycles.com - Slow. Cheapest parts prices, crazy shipping costs. Don't expect progress updates or much communication. Real Suzuki part numbers.
http://alpha-sports.com - Exorbitant parts prices. Different type of fiche interface that's quite useful at times, especially with superceded part numbers. Real parts numbers. Shipping cost and speed unknown due to insane, unholy pricing.

Stainless Bolts, Viton o-rings, metric taps, dies, assorted hard-to-find supplies and materials, etc:

http://mcmaster.com - Fast, cheap shipping, good prices. No order minimum, but many items like bolts come in packs of 25 or 50. Excellent resource.
http://motorcycleseatcovers.com - Great quality, perfect fit (on original seat foam), and available for pretty much every bike ever made. Avoid the textured vinyl -- it's perforated.
http://newenough.com - You DO have riding gear, don't you? Great clearances, always outstanding prices and impeccable service.
***************End Quote**********************
Additional parts/info links:

GSR Forum member Mr. duaneage has great used upgraded Honda regulator/rectifiers for our bikes. Send him a PM.
New electrical parts:
http://stores.ebay.com/RMSTATOR or http://www.rmstator.com/

http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/index.php

http://www.electrosport.com/

For valve cover and breather cover gaskets, I recommend Real Gaskets (reusable silicon):

http://www.realgaskets.com

Carolina Cycle

http://www.carolinacycle.com

Ron Ayers Motorsports

http://www.ronayers.com

MR Cycles

http://www.mrcycles.com

Moto Grid

http://www.motogrid.com

Salvage/Used

http://www.ricepaddymotorcycles.com

http://www.ozpowersports.com/

If all else fails, try this:

http://www.used-motorcycle-parts.org/

Used bike buying checklists:

http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/Riderresc/checklist.asp

http://www.clarity.net/~adam/buying-bike.html

Lots of good info/pictures here:

http://www.suzukicycles.org

http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Motorcycle_Wiki

http://www.bikepics.com
Basic motorcycle maintenance/repair:
http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm
Online Clymer manuals:
http://search.ebscohost.com/ Click on "Small Engine Repair" then "Motorcycles". User=library, password=library. Note: This link may not work if you are on a school campus.

Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed of your progress. There's lots of good folk with good experience here.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
(The unofficial GSR greeter)

[Wraith]

You need KZ1000 keepers. Z1900 are for valves with square keeper grooves. You need thed round 1000 style.
I don't quite remember all of the details, but when people were racing the GS1000s, we did the conversion with the sob Susuki tappet and the rest was Kawasaki parts.
In your post, you mention getting APE short top retainers. We don't make a retainer that has a short top. Did these parts you received come in APE packaging?

Thanks

Jay

Hi Jay. Thanks for that.

Just to clarify - if the retainers which I have are sold as for a Z900, what keepers do I need - Z900 or KZ1000 (is that the 1000J as I'd know it in the UK? I agree that I need round groove ones). Or are you saying that Z900 retainers won't work and that I need KZ1000 retainers?


As regards your APE query, I haven't got the packaging, but recall that it looked APE-like in presentation.
I quote below from the shop in the UK from where I bought the retainers (a well-known and large tuning shop / suppliers) - perhaps it's me whose confused the wording.

" Titanium valve spring retainers TVSR1000K - APE titanium retainers are shorter than stock to provide additional retainer to valve guide clearance for high lift cams. APE valve spring retainers are machined from aircraft quality titanium bar stock in the APE plant on the latest state of the art computerized CNC machinery.CNC machining allows advantages as bored taper keeper holes for exact keeper fit. Special gauging fixtures allow dimensions to be held close to provide exact installed heights when assembling the cylinder head. Use with VTK900 for shim under conversion and GPz1100 Valve shims. Not compatible with shim on top set up. "

They also sell a "valve keeper set - Radius groove valve keeper set of 16." Would these be what I need to make my conversion work?

(Out of interest, I didn't get the buckets/followers from the same shop, as they don't do GS-sized ones, but they do list them for the Kawasakis as follows: Shim under followers VTK900 - Set of APE heavy duty racing tappets or followers to convert shim on top to shim under, TVSRK1000 titanium retainers will also be required to convert the shim on top set up to shim under. )

If you want to know more then if you can contact me off-board (e-mail or pm) then I'll give you the web link and more details - I'm fairly sure that they are genuine parts.

Cheers for now,