Questions for Our Clutch Experts

[Anonymous]

the rattle goes away with a bit of throttle, but not till almost 2500 revs.

I would definitely check the backing plate springs.

Michael

P.S. If the problem is with the backing plate springs, I believe you should also hear little/no change in the pitch of the rattle as you rev the engine. Not sure if this distinguishes the problem from others, but it's something I noticed when my backing plate springs got weak.

[Anonymous]

.......but it's something I noticed when my backing plate springs got weak.

Michael, from your first post on this thread, I guess that you must have replaced your clutch basket when the backing plate springs weakened. Where did you source the replacement basket? I am currently checking with Ron Ayers (seems a fair bit cheaper than BikeBandit).

[moto_dan]

slightly off the beaten path, but does anyone have any ideas as to what would be going on if I can hear a rattle at idle whether the clutch lever is in or out???

Are you sure it's coming from the clutch? I had a hard to pinpoint rattle/buzz that upon close investigation found the rear brake stay arm bolt(closest to the engine) was slightly loose. Sounded like engine noise sitting on the bike that would change with rpm's.

[Anonymous]

Simon,

First of all, you don't need any special tools to work on the clutch. It says so in the manual, I know, but it seems they did that to make it sound more interesting.
The rattle could be caused by a loose clutch hub nut. In theory this shouldn't be possible, but it happened to my GS850 last year. Retorqued it and the rattle had disappeared.
I would drain the oil; otherwise chances are that you'll get quite a mess. I would hate working on the bike with oil dripping all over my hands. Just another reason for an oil change!
Just put the bike on the centerstand, put in into first gear and use a rod or piece of wood to block the rear wheel.
Vesrah plates will work fine. Have them on the GS850; no problems.
I just used some blue silicone to seal the clutch cover.
Average time of a clutch job: 45 minutes or so.

Hope this was of any help.

[Anonymous]

Michael, from your first post on this thread, I guess that you must have replaced your clutch basket when the backing plate springs weakened. Where did you source the replacement basket? I am currently checking with Ron Ayers (seems a fair bit cheaper than BikeBandit).

I got mine from a local dealer... At just less than $400 Canadian, it's probably the most expensive part of the clutch to replace (the clutch hub, by way of comparison, is just over $100).

Michael

[1100ED]

Michael, from your first post on this thread, I guess that you must have replaced your clutch basket when the backing plate springs weakened. Where did you source the replacement basket? I am currently checking with Ron Ayers (seems a fair bit cheaper than BikeBandit).

I got mine from a local dealer... At just less than $400 Canadian, it's probably the most expensive part of the clutch to replace (the clutch hub, by way of comparison, is just over $100).

Michael

Isnt that price you gave, for the basket without the gear, backing plate or the springs??

[mcycle-nut]

Michael, from your first post on this thread, I guess that you must have replaced your clutch basket when the backing plate springs weakened. Where did you source the replacement basket? I am currently checking with Ron Ayers (seems a fair bit cheaper than BikeBandit).

I got mine from a local dealer... At just less than $400 Canadian, it's probably the most expensive part of the clutch to replace (the clutch hub, by way of comparison, is just over $100).

Michael

Isnt that price you gave, for the basket without the gear, backing plate or the springs??

Probably just for the springs, knowing the way we get raped up here for parts. :?

[1100ED]

its like that verywhere. i just priced a basket last week at my local suzuki dealer and the basket alone was almost 300 dollars american. I cant believe i sold my old basket still in good condition and usable for $35.00 Now I need one myself.

[Hap Call]

Re: Questions for Our Clutch Experts

1) Do our clutch experts think that the common clutch rattle (described above) is caused by worn/broken rivets and/or damper springs in the clutch basket? Could a worn thrust washer also be to blame?

Normally caused by the bad rivets and weak springs...I have also see the inner hub loose on the splines due to the large clutch nut coming loose.

2) Can clutch work be performed by an owner with average mechanical skills and commonly-available tools?

The only special tools I use are torque wrenches and the mother of all sockets on the clutch hub nut.

3) Can the work be performed with the bike on the sidestand without first draining the engine oil? Would you just lose about a quart of oil this way when removing the clutch cover?

You can do it, but you can also get some dunnage and borrow a soft pillow (don't let the wife know), assemble some support cribbage (nothing fancy) and lay the bike over further than what the side stand would normally allow. Purists would say you need to completely drain the oil but I don't agree with that.

4) My service manual mentions using a "special tool" (a "conrod holder", which assumes the top end of the engine is disassembled?) when removing the 4 clutch spring mounting bolts. Is this to stop the clutch assembly rotating? How does one do this without the use of a special tool? What common tool can one use?

I use a big ol' wood rod like you would find to hang clothes in a closet and put it through the rear wheel to keep the transmission locked while I loosen and tighten the clutch hub nut. This does cause a little problem if the bike is leaned over...because the rear wheel is in contact with the ground, the bike will want to move forward or backward until the wood rod can wedge itself between the mag spokes and the swing arm...I just inch my cribbing in the direction the bike is moving when this happens.

5) After removing "the spring, pressure plate, push piece, thrust bearing, drive plate and driven plate", then the "clutch sleeve hub nut and lock washer", my service manual then instructs to remove the "clutch sleeve hub" using another special tool ("clutch sleeve hub holder"). Again, can the clutch sleeve hub be removed without a special tool? Can you just put the bike in gear and have someone stand on the rear brake? Is there a better way?

See Question 4.

6) After removing the clutch sleeve hub, and pushing the spacer and bearing backwards, my service manual says the "clutch housing with oil pump drive gear" can be removed. Is this "clutch housing" the "primary driven gear" referred to in many parts diagrams/fiche? Is it also what is commonly called the "clutch basket"?

It sounds like that is what they are talking about.

7) I cannot find a separate part number for the "damper springs" in the clutch basket on BikeBandit.com. Can one just buy the springs, rather than the whole basket?

These springs are normally done by a qualified shop...unless they have caused you problems (broken or compressed too much) leave them alone. If they are bad, call Murdoch Racing or some other trusted shop and see if they can replace the springs for you.

8 ) Are the springs easy to remove and replace? Is there a special technique or use of a common tool to do this?

See Question 7

9) If the rivets are worn, can they usually be drilled out and replaced? What sort of place can usually do this locally, without having the delay of sending the basket off somewhere to get this done?

See Question 8, then Question 7. As far as a local shop...you will need to determine if you feel comfortable with them doing the work. Around here in Beaumont there is no one so I would end up sending the basket to some shop in Florida.

10) Is just buying a new basket ($153 from Ron Ayers for my 1983 GS750ES) a reasonable alternative in terms of cost? Would a new basket usually include the damper springs, or are these a separate item normally?

You need to call the shops and get a price...at $153, Ron Ayers is a good possibility, especially if the stock clutch basket has held up well for you in the past.

11) While the clutch is apart, would you recommend replacing the metal and friction discs/plates and clutch springs as a routine procedure if the clutch has had over 30,000 miles of use? Any preference for OE Suzuki plates and springs vs. Barnett vs. Vesrah vs. EBC equivalents?

I would go ahead and change them if they have 30,000+ miles...BUT...if you are easy on the clutch and are strapped for cash, reuse the plates. but check to insure that the steel plates are not stressed from heat or warped. If they are, change both the drive plates and the fiber clutch plates. I prefer stock plates over aftermarket...seem to have a better feel.

12) Would you also replace the thrust washer as standard routine procedure?

Only if there were signs of wear.

13) When reinstalling the clutch hub, the service manual notes to "check that the rubber damper plug is in position behind the clutch hub". What is this "rubber damper plug"? Does it get worn by use and should it be replaced as standard procedure? I can find no picture showing this part in the manual or on the parts diagrams.

It is a small rubber plug that helps dampen clutch engagement. I have never replaced one.

14) Should one use a new tongued/tabbed lock washer when reinstalling the clutch hub and nut?

YES

15) I understand that new friction plates should be left to soak in clean engine oil for a period of time before installing. For what period of time should this be done?

I do it over night.

16) I know that the metal and friction plates have to reinstalled in a particular order. Is there any orientation of the individual plates that should be used? I assume that it is a good idea to keep the original "pack" of plates together as a "go by".

No real orientation…do just as you were thinking.

17) I note that the clutch spring bolts should be tightened diagonally, and by degrees, to a fairly low torque level (8.0 – 9.5 lb-ft for my bike). I assume a standard, large torque wrench (17" length. 150lb-ft limit) is too big/inaccurate for this task. Would you recommend getting a smaller torque wrench for this task? Where is a good place to get one and what do they typically cost? I am concerned about this because I assume that even torque on all 4 bolts is important and I am also aware that some members have stripped these bolts or the plate (no names!).

Get a torque wrench that measures in inch-pounds. Multiply the ft-lbs by 12 to get in-lbs. You do not want to be in the upper or lower 20% of the scale of the torque wrench if you can help it. “Ahem”….I did not strip the bolts….Actually, you bring up a good point. The bolts on my bike were fatigued from years of use. I have heavy clutch springs also so I am sure that helped accelerated the fatigue of the bolts.

18 ) I assume that a new gasket is usually necessary when replacing the clutch cover. I can't find a part number for this gasket on BikeBandit. Would BikeBandit or Ron Ayers normally carry them, or is this a "dealer only" item?

They will have them or can order them.

19) My manual also specifies using "Suzuki Bond No. 1207B" on part of the cover mating surface. I assume this is a gasket cement/compound. Does anyone have a brand of compound they prefer, and where can you usually buy it.

Perma-Tex or Yamaha-Bond (I believe that is what they call it) will both work.

20) Are there any items or "gotcha's" that I have missed, and need a warning here?

Clean work area, clean rags, and go slow.

21) Finally, how long might the whole clutch servicing job take? Given my painstaking methods, I shall probably multiply any answer by at least 2 or 3!

It takes me an hour to do a clutch job…the first time it took me about 4 hours.


Hap

[Anonymous]

I am not sure if it is from the clutch or not. I do know that it is definately an internal noise coming from the lower case area. The oil level is fine, so I am basing my assumption on the clutch area.

[1100ED]

I am not sure if it is from the clutch or not. I do know that it is definately an internal noise coming from the lower case area. The oil level is fine, so I am basing my assumption on the clutch area.

is this a new noise?? is it rpm related. both under a strong load and also just wwhen cruising. Im just asking questions to help clarify the noise so others can recognize it. I had a noise that turned out to be an exhaust
leak. DROVE ME CRAZY AND I WAS SURE THE CAM CHAIN WAS GOING TO SNAP ANY SECOND. ????????? :? :? :?

[Anonymous]

Hi Scotty,
Somebody was trying to sell me a new stock basket for my 1100 a few months ago. He wanted 170$US and I can hook you up with him if interested. He also had an 1197 kit for 375 amongst other odds and ends.

Steve

[Anonymous]

For those of us with 83 + 750s (myself I have an 83 750ES) and the clutch rattle:

If the rattle is coming from the hub, either springs or rivets, it seems our only option is to buy an OEM hub and rebuild the clutch from there. I have called around to many shops both near and far, and no one (that I found anyways and I checked the obvious culprits) rebuilds hubs for the newer 750s they seem to have different gearing and spacing (from the 1100s). One of the shops said I could send it to them but they could not guarantee that they could fix it or that I would recieve a working hub back!?!? So being that my clutch is about to explode (rattles to 2500+ rpm) I guess that I am going to have to invest the $250 dollars and get all new clutch parts from RonAyers.com



-B

[Anonymous]

Hap, you are a "prince" for taking the time to answer all my questions so comprehensively. I know that your advice will help many of us in tackling the clutch for the first time.

I think that I will have to do what Michael mentioned earlier in the thread: go in and do a preliminary investigation and diagnosis before I can figure out what parts need replacing. I suspect I will take a precautionary approach and replace parts (e.g. plates), if in doubt. BTW, I did eventually locate the clutch cover gasket on the parts fiche on BikeBandit and ordered a couple from Ron Ayers so I can do this ASAP.

Two final questions:

1) Do I really need to wear a thong while working on the clutch?
and
2) If so, should I keep the garage door closed. 8O

[Anonymous]

For those of us with 83 + 750s (myself I have an 83 750ES) and the clutch rattle.....

-B

BillBBB, sorry to hear that you have the dreaded "clutch rattle" but it's good to "meet" another owner of the rare '83 GS750ES.

Lets keep in touch on this thread when we have located the source of the rattle and figured out what the cure is.