Hi Performance engine coatings (internals)

[dardoonk]

The company I work for Bekaert, is a world leader in coating technology. One of our divisions specializes in advanced coatings (Cavidur) which nearly all F1, DTR and many Nascar teams use on engine internals. Unfortunately, we don't apply the coatings here in the US and were too big of a company for me to get on the "inside" to get some freebee coatings. So, even though we've got the best technology, I don't have affordable access to it. Basically, it's all race proven technology, so I've been reading up on some other companies that can do similar work at a more affordable price.

Today, I spoke to HPC Coatings regarding their SDF (solid dry film) & TBC (thermal barrier coatings). SDF is applied to piston skirts, camshafts, valve stems & other similar wear points. HPC is applied to mainly to the combusion face & valve faces. It takes a long time for either to wear off and greatly extends the life of parts. SDF is a friction reducer, while the HPC improves the flame travel, reduces the amount of heat reaching the rings and basically allows a more efficient combustion process. It is used on valves to reduce temperature and extend life.

According to their website, they claim a 5% increase in power & a 13% increase in volumetic efficiency. Those are big numbers, especially on a drag bike where finding that last few hp gets tough.

So I am wondering if anyone has used this on any of their bikes and what were the "real world" results? The cost I was quoted today was $40 per piston & $12 per valve. If all this is true, and saves you one teardown on the motor, it seems like cheap insurance.

HPC:

http://www.hpcoatings.com/am/products/products_friction.aspx

Bekaert:

http://www.bekaert.com/bac/Products/Diamond-like%20coatings/Racing%20Engine%20Parts.htm

[KiwiGS]

I had my racebike headers HPC'd with great results.
I didnt have an engine parts coated but I would based on the results from headers.
Cheers

[dardoonk]

HPC said much of their work is headers & said there are performance gains from doing so. You did see a performance gain with the headers and it's not all bling?

[rapidray]

The headers DEFINITELY make more power when coated but they need to be coated inside & outside to get all the power you can. When I have skirts coated they have shown a LITTLE more power but not a lot. Same with the dome coating. My engines are naturally aspirated but I'll bet a turbo motor would gain power with the piston tops coated. I know supercharged engines do. On a street motor I just couldn't justify the cost. Ray.

[KiwiGS]

HPC said much of their work is headers & said there are performance gains from doing so. You did see a performance gain with the headers and it's not all bling?

Yeah mate *I* felt there was a performance gain, I have to say the bike wasn't dyno'd before and after so it was just a feeling.
I had the headers coated inside and out. It wasn't cheap but I found the coating to be vary durable and extended the life of the pipes for sure.
Cheers

[drhach]

When I was in college we looked in to doing some of this stuff. What we found were companies that ceramic coated headers in and out. Other ceramic coated piston domes and combustion chambers as well as teflon coating piston skirts. The physics all show that this stuff yields gains. None of the gains are significant. So, your return on investment might be pretty low. For most things, racers are at different levels than the rest of us and they willing to spend more to get little results. I knew a guy who used to cut the excess tails off of his zip ties to save weight.

The other thing to consider is that stuff is not really intended to last. Ceramic is brittle. With the constant heat cycling of turning an engine on and off, it will flake off. Ceramic coating headers is pretty easy to redo. Ceramic coating piston domes is a little harder to redo. I'm not sure about teflon. It may last longer. Cold starting probably would be the worst hting for that coating. That's when you have steel to teflon rubbing. I wouldn't expect super high mileag from that either. Like a lot of this stuff, it works pretty good on paper.

[dardoonk]

I know that the Bekaert product is an entirely different process (ie: non ceramic) and based on our sputtering technology. Sputtering is bombardment of the substrate (whatever your coating) with ions and then impregnating the special coating into (not onto) the material. Probably part of the reason F1 technology is so high, but also the reason I can't get them to do it for me.

The HPC coating does say it is ceramic based, but is supposed to have the same expansion rate as alum. Hopefully, this would help with the flaking issues you mention.
Not sure how long ago you looked into the coatings, but I would hope the Solid Dry Film technology they are using continues to improve. I spoke to one guy that has both HPC coatings on the pistons of his Gixxer drag bike & said their has only been minor scraping on the skirts, but the top coating has stayed perfect even after several teardowns.

drhach, if your really into this type of thing, or are a metallugist, here's what sputtering is:
http://http://www.bekaert.com/bac/FAQ/Sputter%20Products.htm

[rapidray]

In all the years I have been building engines, I have NEVER had a ceramic coating flake off. From a header or even a piston. NEVER!!! Ray.

[drhach]

I know that the Bekaert product is an entirely different process (ie: non ceramic) and based on our sputtering technology. Sputtering is bombardment of the substrate (whatever your coating) with ions and then impregnating the special coating into (not onto) the material. Probably part of the reason F1 technology is so high, but also the reason I can't get them to do it for me.

The HPC coating does say it is ceramic based, but is supposed to have the same expansion rate as alum. Hopefully, this would help with the flaking issues you mention.
Not sure how long ago you looked into the coatings, but I would hope the Solid Dry Film technology they are using continues to improve. I spoke to one guy that has both HPC coatings on the pistons of his Gixxer drag bike & said their has only been minor scraping on the skirts, but the top coating has stayed perfect even after several teardowns.

drhach, if your really into this type of thing, or are a metallugist, here's what sputtering is:
http://http://www.bekaert.com/bac/FAQ/Sputter%20Products.htm

Thanks for the link. I was looking at it in 2004 as a part of my Senior thesis for my ME degree. The main guy I spoke to was a professor who had done some consulting work for Ford. He was a materials science professor. He said that they had longevity issues with it. I wouldn't doubt that other things came up too. I know that back then it was a fairly expensive process. I also would imagine that the way that an automaker defines longevity is different from how a racer might define it. For them it was measured in 100's of thousands of miles. I'm not sure how much the technology has changed. I'll definitely check the link though. Thanks.