stator ranges question..

[seuadr]

looked through the stator pages and i may have missed it, if so i appoligize.

anyone had any numbers in what the stator for the 1100G produces?
(my bike is currently down, i can't test for myself)
i'm looking for specifically:

AC voltage
AC amprage

and DC amprage at idle.

thanks in advance, guys.

 

[bwringer]

Amperage? Dunno.

For AC voltage, you want to see somewhere around 65-70 volts AC (R/R disconnected; engine @5,000 rpm) between each wire pair from a stock stator.

If it's an aftermarket stator, some are made with thicker wire and fewer turns, so they'll read 45-50 VAC. Yellow or black wires usually mean aftermarket stator.

Voltage output at idle depends, of course, on the R/R somewhat. Usually it's generating a little, but it'll be a little low -- 12.8 or so with a healthy battery.

On my GS850 (original 97,000 mile stator, Honda R/R, headlight on) just off idle, with a Honda R/R, it jumps to 13.5 pretty quickly and is at full output (14.5 to 14.7) by 2,500 rpm.

 

[lurch12_2000]

If it's an aftermarket stator, some are made with thicker wire and fewer turns, so they'll read 45-50 VAC. Yellow or black wires usually mean aftermarket stator.

Voltage output at idle depends, of course, on the R/R somewhat. Usually it's generating a little, but it'll be a little low -- 12.8 or so with a healthy battery.

On my GS850 (original 97,000 mile stator, Honda R/R, headlight on) just off idle, with a Honda R/R, it jumps to 13.5 pretty quickly and is at full output (14.5 to 14.7) by 2,500 rpm.

Pretty much the same on my '83 1100G as stated here after replacing with an aftermarket stator....I thought at first my 55-56v readings on the 3 new stator pairings were low after reading the shop manual and stator papers but I have had no problems since. Thanks for that explanation.

 

[seuadr]

hmm. ok.

i know it's probably a waste of time, but i'm in a class with a teacher right now that has a double batchlors in electrical engineering. I was explaining my idea to get a second power tap off the stator before it hits the rectifier using a center tap transformer and then rectifing both taps for 2 sources of 12vdc. he told me if i get him measurements for the system, including amperage ranges between idle and WOT he'd do the math and see if it was probable to work properly, as well as size the transformer for me.

 

[Dogma]

Is that not the same as a 2nd r/r in parallel? What is the advantage over installing a single higher capacity r/r?

 

[lurch12_2000]

hmm. ok.

i know it's probably a waste of time, but i'm in a class with a teacher right now that has a double batchlors in electrical engineering. I was explaining my idea to get a second power tap off the stator before it hits the rectifier using a center tap transformer and then rectifing both taps for 2 sources of 12vdc. he told me if i get him measurements for the system, including amperage ranges between idle and WOT he'd do the math and see if it was probable to work properly, as well as size the transformer for me.

Not sure what you're trying to remedy? Are you making it more complicated than necessary?
Assuming you've tried cleaning all connections (which has not helped me in three 1100's I've owned) then:
If you have a failed stator then either try to rewind yourself or pay $110+ for a new one.
If you have a failed r/r then you can get a better one for $40 from Duanage.
Otherwise you're going to keep draining your battery(failed stator)or cook it(faulty r/r) for another $35-50.
Not sure trying some homemade, custom setup is solving anything, but I may be missing something..... There are actually 3 pairings off the stator now for charging output. But if they read real low like 8vac or 14vac (as my failed stator in the G did) then no extra connections are going to make it put out enough charging juice...
but then I'm not an electrical engineer

 

[rustybronco]

AC voltage

75-80 vac @5000rpm

AC amprage

figuring about/around a 260 watt output of the stator, the amperage @80vac would be 3.25 amps

and DC amprage at idle.

probably <1.0 amp

I was explaining my idea to get a second power tap off the stator before it hits the rectifier using a center tap transformer and then rectifing both taps for 2 sources of 12vdc. he told me if i get him measurements for the system, including amperage ranges between idle and WOT he'd do the math and see if it was probable to work properly, as well as size the transformer for me.

Why would you want to use an isolation transformer with its inherent added losses?
you do know you need to maintain at least 26 vac @ idle (how are you connecting to the phases?) on the primary side with a center tapped secondary to maintain a voltage of 12.8vac output then rectify each output and still regulate the output at higher rpms.

What purpose will it serve?

***edit*** how are you proposing to connect the primary side of the transformer to the 3-phase output of the stator, or are you going to connect it to only one phase of the stator output, with the resultant load imbalance it will create?

 

[rudy]

I thought we've gone over this all before. :-k

Didn't seem like a good idea then, why would it change? Space constraints, losses, over complication, and no benefits over a good R/R from duanage kinda trump and hopes for gains. The stator will only put out so much current. You can't create more current, no matter what.

Space constraints: You'll need a 3 phase transformer, or 3 single phase transformers. They're not light, nor are they small. Not cheap either, for what you plan to do with them.

Losses: Why spend money on something that will weigh your bike down, eat up a portion of what little electrical power you have, and basically do nothing for you?

Over complication: Um, self explanatory.

So, why is it that you want to do this? Is it for a class project? If so, I'd say yes, go ahead and do it for experimentation's sake and take all your measurements to prove/disprove theories and ideas. Would be great as a tech project for sure. But, on the other hand, as a permanent solution to whatever problem you may have, not the best choice.

 

[rustybronco]

But what you could do that would make sense, is to get a higher wattage stator...

 

[seuadr]

I thought we've gone over this all before. :-k

Didn't seem like a good idea then, why would it change? Space constraints, losses, over complication, and no benefits over a good R/R from duanage kinda trump and hopes for gains. The stator will only put out so much current. You can't create more current, no matter what.

Space constraints: You'll need a 3 phase transformer, or 3 single phase transformers. They're not light, nor are they small. Not cheap either, for what you plan to do with them.

Losses: Why spend money on something that will weigh your bike down, eat up a portion of what little electrical power you have, and basically do nothing for you?

Over complication: Um, self explanatory.

So, why is it that you want to do this? Is it for a class project? If so, I'd say yes, go ahead and do it for experimentation's sake and take all your measurements to prove/disprove theories and ideas. Would be great as a tech project for sure. But, on the other hand, as a permanent solution to whatever problem you may have, not the best choice.

i don't have any issues with my stator and rr, they work fine. i'm just interested in trying it.

as far as benifits, not many,but i can get transformers at cost, and, they are not by any means large.. we have some at school that are 120vac with a center tap for running two control circuits in oil furnaces with air conditioning and they are about an inch square.

i understand that i can not create more current, but if the stator is creating 50vac per line, and outputting 10-20vac.. that's alot of extra voltage that is being dumped to ground, why not try to take advantage of it for secondary lighting systems and such?

i don't have a specific plan for any benifits from the idea, but depending on how well it works, i don't see how there wouldn't be multiple uses.

 

[seuadr]

But what you could do that would make sense, is to get a higher wattage stator...

that's another idea, where would i go about looking for something like that?

 

[seuadr]

Is that not the same as a 2nd r/r in parallel? What is the advantage over installing a single higher capacity r/r?

i don't know? mebby a higher capacity r/r is the way to go?

 

[seuadr]

i'm not tryign to challenge you guys and "prove you wrong" if that is the sort of vibe i am giving off. i simply explained my system as i understood it to the teacher, and he thought that if there is 50 vac getting turned into approx 15vdc that there is alot of potential voltage for use there, that is simply getting dumped to ground.

now, i may not have explained it properly to him and missed something important that accounts for that voltage?

 

[Billy Ricks]

that's another idea, where would i go about looking for something like that?

http://www.rmstator.com/en/index.php They supposedly have a higher output than stock. I just replaced mine but didn't bother taking any measurements to confirm the higher output.

 

[rustybronco]

i simply explained my system as i understood it to the teacher, and he thought that if there is 50 vac getting turned into approx 15vdc that there is alot of potential voltage for use there, that is simply getting dumped to ground.

now, i may not have explained it properly to him and missed something important that accounts for that voltage?

the unused (excess) wattage on your system is given up as heat by the R/R. if you add acessories (wattage) that excess wattage is used, up to the output limit of the stator: it is not not given up as heat by the R/R.

If you have a bag that holds 275 beans and you need 320 beans.
get a bigger bag...

 

[Matchless]

seuadr,
I have seen similar thoughts like this and you are actually looking at exactly what bothered me right at the beginning when I first looked at the charging system. I have read up on it quite a bit and I now have come to understand why we are stuck with it. If you will bear with me I will just mention them:

1) Our bikes have a 3 phase AC alternator with a full wave rectifier bridge. These bridges are rated at anything from a couple of Amps mostly up to 35 Amps for the larger bikes. You can do the maths in calculating what the RMS voltage would give you after rectification and that will be your DC max voltage before regulation. This output is also directly related to the RPM's of the alternator and is sometimes the factor most overlooked. It cannot put out maximum current at low RPM's and when people look at this they forget that this. Thus we also want enough current to keep the bike and battery alive at low speeds as well.

2) The regulator uses SCR's that shunt the excess current once a preset voltage is reached, such as say 14.2 V (these regulators differ by design between 13.8 V to 15.1 Volt as the regulation voltage). Again the SCRs are current rated to match the bridge and may be the same or slightly higher than the bridge. A field regulated alternator kicks in earlier at low RPM's and usually provides a steady 13.8V throughout.

3) Small and large bikes can both have the same size 18 pole alternator (or any other size) as an example, but the windings could differ. Thus the maximum current is dependant on the maximum rating of the alternater (usually given in Watts), say 22 Amp or 28 Amp for example.

4) The Rectifier/Regulator of a smaller bike and thus a lower output alternator will be matched so that the R/R does not exceed its rating, overheat and fail. Thus a larger R/R on a low output alternator will just provide a larger safety factor and the R/R will not be stressed and may last longer. It will not provide more current.

5) Fitting an stronger alternator usually means that more copper and heavier wire is used. Just keep in mind that there is very limited space for more copper. There is always a tradeoff, heavier windings fill the space with less windings and thus lower AC voltage. Thinner wire allow more windings, higher AC voltage. This you can look at yourself. More current, more heat etc. You also do not want to run the motor at 10 000 RPM before making any usefull current! It is a bit nicer if you can cruise in traffic with lights on, at low RPM without draining your battery.

6) Series or linear regulators do not work on a bike, it is claimed that more heat is generated in the components, thus requiring much larger and expensive regulators. Many people question this and I have seen many theories. I think this is a subject on its own.

7) Shunt regulators as we know them now, have been used since the late 70's by each and every M/C manufacturer right up to today. If there really was another and better way someone would have followed that path already. I think that many high tech R & D's have alreadly looked at this and found this to be the best option cost wise, easy to manufacture and takes up the least space. By the way I have noticed that Shindengen have now brought out a FET instead of SCR shunt regulator, 50 Amp rating.

8) The ideal power generating system is the standard car type alternator with a field winding regulating the output voltage, thus not using permanent magnets and some top end bikes already use this - Goldwing etc. There is thus no unused current that has to be absorbed somewhere as heat and for starters the regulators are not heavy duty like ours.

9) What this all means is that the actual space and size limitations will be one of the main reasons for sticking to this old method, then comes cost as well. Unfortunately it is not a bullet proof design as the regulator can easily be build to weld with, but the stator windings remain the achilles heel. One needs to get an alternator out into some cooling air and use field winding regulation and then you can literally weld with an alternator.

10) It thus boils down to the fact that no matter what we do we cannot get more amps from our bikes than what the stator can give and that is due to the size and space limitation. You can only upgrade the stator slightly and in the process you are most likely compromising the safety factor which will then manifest itself a bit sooner. Thus if you ever do upgrade your charging system and maybe squeeze out an extra 20 or 30 watts, remember to upgrade your regulator as well.

11) On a smaller bike, yes, you could use an upgraded alternater, to specs of the larger bikes, but you MUST then also put in a larger regulator and most of then are only rated maximum 35 Amp. This will still limit you to very much the same load you already have on the larger bikes and will not give you the capability to add foglights or a 200W HF radio other than very low current extras.

As you can see we are really very much stuck with what we have and the best way is to ensure that everything is in perfect condition, alternator, wiring, battery and regulator. Reduce the current hungry loads as far as possible by fitting LED's or maybe HID headlights (35 watt). Maintain your battery well and enjoy the GS.

As you can see I am no electronics fundi, and gave it as I see and understand it. If I made some non-scientific statements in error then I apologise and do not use this at your college as your professor may fail you and I will be to blame!!

Edit: I apologise if I came over rudely in this one, it was not my intention. I just wanted to paint the whole picture from what I have seen to date. Your questioning things like this is admirable and shows an enquiring mind. My intention is or was not to put anyone down that tries to think outside the box! You would most probably be amazed if I could show you all the proposals on changes to our charging systems that people have thought of and then finally saw that it was theoretically good, but not very possible in practice, meaning that I am very open to such innovations and look at them closely for possibilities.
Keep well.