GK Stereo advice wanted

[bakalorz]

While this is correct, the big picture is that ANY speaker that has a tweeter built into it isn't truly designed to produce any kind of realistic bass responses. I mean, let's all face it, even an 8" subwoofer would easily outclass even the best set of 6.5" speakers when it comes to bass...so you have to look at it fairly realistically and realize that you're not really going to end up with much bass on a motorcycle no matter what you do.




This might be an option to explore. Throwing some fiberglass down to reinforce the...ummm...plastic?? Whatever that the fairing is actually made out of. Then throwing some Dynomat (or cheaper alternative) all over the inside of the enclosure. Follow that up with some fiber in there to fill up the enclosure and you more than likely would get an increase in the response of the speaker. But I don't really know if it would end up being worth the trouble in the long run.

Like I said, on a bike, you aren't going to end up with a ton of bass no matter what you do. So all of that effort to make sure the enclosure is sealed correctly might end up netting you no realistic advantage to the sound quality.



Right...but the point is, most well designed 4" speakers are going to have about the same realistic power handling as a well designed 6.5" speaker. And the 5.25" is going to be in the same line.

I'll use Polk Audio as an example, because I am a fan of their products. Their dB line of speakers is currently their "lower end" stuff, but in the past it was the high end. But a brand new set of Polk DB 4" drivers has the following power ratings:
4"--135w peak power, 45w continuous power
Now, the 5.25" version of the SAME SERIES of speakers, mysteriously, has the following power ratings:
5.25"--135w peak power, 45w continuous power

So those two speakers, despite the one being larger than the other, both have the exact same power specs.

I guess my point on the whole matter is basically that bass response is going to be "bad" from an actual audio point of view no matter what kind of speakers you can wedge into your fairing. Whether you stick with 4" drivers, widen the hole to accomodate 5.25" drivers, or go all out and stick some 6.5" drivers in there, you are still never going to be able to make any kind of actual bass that is worth discussing.

Actually ... look at the rest of the specs for those speakers too ...
The frequency response for the 6.5 goes down to 35hz, the 5.25 to 60hz and the 4 only to 80hz.
(and the polk 5.25 seems particularly weak ... the response on Alpine's low end series 6.5 was 35hz, 4 was 80hz, but the 5.25 was at 45hz)

But bass at 45 (or even 60 hz) is some bass ... which is MUCH better than 80 hz

Is it going to thump like a sub ... no ...

But the 5.25 will sound MUCH less thin than a 4.

The bottom line is, in my opinion, the best way to get better sound out of the fairing setup is to go with a higher powered, higher quality head unit. Once you realize that bass isn't really an option with the way the machine is setup, you will wish that you had spent the money on a better head unit so that at the very least you can hear the vocals and guitar riffs and whatever in whichever music you favor.

All high power head units are about the same, don't believe any of them when they claim to be much higher power than other ones.

The laws of physics/electronics cause a very real limit to how much power a head unit can deliver into 4 ohm speakers using a 12 volt (nominal) source.
Its on the order of about 20 watts/channel or so. Any headunits that claim higher will have to cheat to do it ... by using a higher "battery" voltage, low impedance speakers, multiple speakers/channel etc.

Years ago there was no standardization on how the specs were measured, and many of the car stereo specs were wildly inflated by pretty much all the manufacturers. Eventually the industry developed a realistic standardised test refered to as the "CEA-2006 Power Rating".

Look at Alpine's webpage for the current headunits http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/prod...category=AV_HU You will see that every single headunit lists a power spec between 4 x 45 and 4 x 60 watts.
And then in the fine print you will see a section that says something like "CEA-2006 Power Rating (4Ohm@14.4 V =1% THD+N), S/N 80dBA (Ref: 1W into 4Ohm): 18W x 4". The CEA-2006 rating of every single Alpine headunit from the cheapest to the $1,400 one is 18 watts/ch or less.

Go to Sony, JVC, any of them and you'll see the same thing.
On some of the less reputable manufacturers you may not see it, but read their specs carefully.
It's not that their headunits are more powerful, its just that they inflate the specs somehow.

Absolutely positively ALL the high power headunits are limited to this. Period. No exceptions.
V=IR enforces it, and theres no getting around it.
The only way to get more is to use a DC/DC converter, and I've never heard of one in a head unit.
If you believe otherwise, you have swallowed some advertisers bullcr@p hook line and sinker.

Dedicated amplifiers get around this by boosting the voltage using a DC/DC converter.
The DC/DC converter takes the 12V DC, chops it up into high frequency A/C, runs the AC into a transformer which boosts it to a higher voltage (typically 20 to 75 volts or even more) and rectifies it back into DC (but at much more than 12-14 volts)
They then internaly use this higher voltage to run the actual amplifier.
But that is too big and heavy (and expensive) to have inside the headunit, and to the best of my knowledge there are no headunits that have a DC/DC converter built in.

So ALL "high powered" head units are within a dB or two of each other.
Some particularly crappy manufacturers units may be somewhat lower, but none will be higher. EVER

If you want more than 20 watts per channel (in reality, as opposed to what the advertisers try to pretend if you arent' looking carefully) you absolutely positively have to get a seperate amp.

Now, with that said...has anyone thought of trying to wedge an 8" sub into one of the hard sided cases that fit on the back of the bike??? I have two of them, and one is broken...but it would be PERFECT to seal up with fiberglass and try to shove a small amp and a small sub into it. I don't know if the bike's charging system could handle the load, however. Even that, to me, would be a waste of time and money because it's still not going to sound great...but it definitely would be interesting!!!!

[Gimpdiggity]

If you want more than 20 watts per channel (in reality, as opposed to what the advertisers try to pretend if you arent' looking carefully) you absolutely positively have to get a seperate amp.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-0YkXWhoH0cV/p_500CDA7894/Alpine-CDA-7894.html

Rated at 27 watts RMS. Mine bench tested at about 35 RMS. I guess it must be the "exception" to your rule.

I also find it rather insulting that you would like to sit there and insinuate that I don't know the difference between continuous power and maximum power. Thanks!!!

I guess we'll have to just disagree...because I personally believe that the time and effort spent wedging some 6.5" speakers into the fairing isn't going to end up being worth it. Because in the end, you still won't be getting the bass response that you WANT.

The bottom line is this:

6.5" speakers are just that...speakers...not subwoofers.

[Planecrazy]

***EDIT***
Is that Brown County in Indiana, or Illinois?? I did a quick Google search and see there is one in each state!!!

Brown County, Indiana ... straight shot south for you, down I65.

Click me for the Brown County Rally thread

Click me for the Fennimore Rally thread

Regards,

[Gimpdiggity]

Brown County, Indiana ... straight shot south for you, down I65.

Click me for the Brown County Rally thread

Click me for the Fennimore Rally thread

Regards,

Nice. I'll check it out. If I can get this big thing up to the standards that I want it at, I'll try to make it.

I gotta get an o-ring replaced and a dent in the tank taken care of. Those are first on my list. It's ridable, but it's pretty ugly right now...

[BigLou]

Nice. I'll check it out. If I can get this big thing up to the standards that I want it at, I'll try to make it.

I gotta get an o-ring replaced and a dent in the tank taken care of. Those are first on my list. It's ridable, but it's pretty ugly right now...

ah hell, my GK is ugly as sin, but she runs and i will be there on her.

[Planecrazy]

It's ridable, but it's pretty ugly right now...

No excuses allowed! I have a modded trunk rack on my "G" that needs grinding and painting, and my fairing needs the edge molding replaced (PO had a minor crash) but that hasn't stopped me from going out and having fun with the gang! Sure I'd like my bike to look pristine, but we GSR'rs don't judge appearances so don't let that hold you back from meeting new friends and having a blast!

Regards,

[bakalorz]

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-0YkXWho...-CDA-7894.html

Rated at 27 watts RMS. Mine bench tested at about 35 RMS.

Apparently I was wrong, someone DID stuff a DC/DC converter into a headunit.

Cool, I'll have to haunt e-bay in hopes of picking one up.

I guess it must be the "exception" to your rule.

Actually, it seems like it IS quite a rare exception ... The V-drive series has been discontinued by Alpine, and of the 158 headunits currently available at crutchfield, NONE show a CEA-2006 rating of over 22 watts.

So I'll pretty much stand by what I said ... telling people to get a more powerful headunit is no help if they can't get them.

Do you know of any other headunits like that besides the Alpine V-drives.
(and where to get them)
Cause thats the first I've ever heard of any.

If there are some current units, I'll fully agree that you are right and they would be the prefered option in the fairing.
(althought they should still be mated to something other than 4"s)

Are there any, and if yes, give everyone reading the manufacturere and model #s
(And some good can come of our disagreement)

I also find it rather insulting that you would like to sit there and insinuate that I don't know the difference between continuous power and maximum power. Thanks!!!

I honestly thought you didn't know the difference. Many people don't.
And your 2nd post in this thread has enough little things in it that are "not quite right" that to me it implied you were out of your depth.

I guess we'll have to just disagree...because I personally believe that the time and effort spent wedging some 6.5" speakers into the fairing isn't going to end up being worth it. Because in the end, you still won't be getting the bass response that you WANT.

Let me try to explain it this way:
My current car has 4" MB Quart seperates in the front doors and 12" subs taking up a big part of the trunk. 75w/ch to the fronts and 200-something to the subs
(and a pair of Aura Bass Shakers ... gimmicky but I like em)
It's pretty modest, but I think it rocks.
Occasionally I need to put other stuff in the trunk and so I pull the subs.
It's awful, I listen to talk radio cause music is just not worth it ...
Without the subs the 4"s are hideous.
Bleah ... I've actually seriously considered making the smallest possible box for an 8 incher to hide between the seats just to have something for those rare occasions.

The previous car had alpine 5.25s in the doors and 12s in the trunk.
Same amp up front, somewhat more to the rears, no shakers
It rocked too.
When I drove that car without the subs I wasn't thrilled, but I could stand it.
I wasn't "getting the bass response that you WANT", but there was SOME base there.
I still listened to music.
I never once considered making a tiny sub because it was just so awful without it.

As part of a system, I think the 4" MB Quarts sound much better than the alpine 5.25s I had before.
Better mids, somehow less harsh.

But without the subs the 4s fall flat on their face. They're awful.
Without the subs the 5.25s were OK ... not great, but Ok

And thats why I say hack up the fairing.

(and yeah, sure, more power too ... but the better drivers come first, cause in this case they are the weakest link)

The bottom line is this:

6.5" speakers are just that...speakers...not subwoofers.

True ... but 4" speakers are not even really speakers ... just glorified tweeters

[willie]

I had no idea that I'd be opening up such a can of worms when I started this thread. None the less, I got the information I was looking for, and then some. FWIW, I've made my decision and its to convert the space presently occupied by the stereo and speakers to storage compartments. I think I've come up with a pretty novel idea on how to make water-tight covers for what were the speaker openings. I'll post pics after I fabricate them. As to satisfying my desire for tunes while riding......I'm going with FMJ earbuds and an MP3 player.
Thanks for all the responses and I apologize for the irritations I caused.
Willie in TN

[Mysuzyq]

I had no idea that I'd be opening up such a can of worms when I started this thread. None the less, I got the information I was looking for, and then some. FWIW, I've made my decision and its to convert the space presently occupied by the stereo and speakers to storage compartments. I think I've come up with a pretty novel idea on how to make water-tight covers for what were the speaker openings. I'll post pics after I fabricate them. As to satisfying my desire for tunes while riding......I'm going with FMJ earbuds and an MP3 player.
Thanks for all the responses and I apologize for the irritations I caused.
Willie in TN

No can of worms....it's all good info! All of us benefit, by learning & drawing our own conclusions from intelligent debate on the forum..... enjoyable reading, as long as it's kept respectful.
IMHO, the earbuds would be the best way to go on a bike, all things considered (though I'm not a fan of tunes while riding).

Tony.

[Steve]

As to satisfying my desire for tunes while riding......I'm going with FMJ earbuds and an MP3 player.

Sounds good (pun intended), but please take a look at the laws in your state and any other state where you might do some riding. Some states prohibit earbuds altogether. Others will allow ONE, still others don't really care or at least they don't have any laws about them. However, I don't know of any state that prohibits speakers in the helmet, so you might look into that option, instead. (It's also easier to put on your helmet if you don't have to worry about knocking the earbuds out of your ears.)

.

[Gimpdiggity]

Full Metal Jackets are the best, man.

For the money, I don't think I've came across a better headphone set. I love mine, and wouldn't give them up for the world.